# Victims of Abu Ghraib, you are not alone! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432 "2005-01-12T20:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/41 "2005-01-13T22:50:08Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Tell me, Mr. Saint, how do you keep order in prison full of criminals and enemy combattants in the middle of war deep in enemy territory? Do you give candies, think that will work? Fact is, young soldiers put in such circumstances will loose their heads and make mistakes. You going to begin a hageography now? I’d like to be known as Finn, patron saint of textual analysis and dry red wine. Now,what would I do to keep order? Why, I’d beat them! And rape little kids! And kill innocents! Yes, that’s that ticket! You do know, by the way, that US penal systems don’t do those things, and they deal with very, very hardened criminals? Moreoever, in a chain of command it is totally unnaceptable for young soldiers to ‘lose their heads.’ If they weren’t following orders, they deserve this court martialed. If they were, their superiors deserve it also. > [@New Iskander](#): > > I know, you say, “_We are Americans! We can’t do torture!_” > Then, what do you do? You can’t execute, you can’t brutalize, how can you maintain order against enemy combattants, conspiring to shoot or stab you in the back at any moment? Well, I’m sure if you ask your local BDSM crowd you can get a bunch of restraints. :smack: > [@New Iskander](#): > > - _That’s why we shouldn’t have intervened in Iraq!_ > Then, where can we ever intervene? Um… when there is an actual danger to American lives and/or it’s **actually** a humanitarian mission. Don’t give me any bull about this being for Iraqis, this was just another Bush photo op. Mission accomplished indeed. > [@New Iskander](#): > > - _Not in Iraq, certainly! Sudan, may be. They have real genocide there!_ > But what if things get nasty in Sudan and some US soldiers manhandle some Sudanese Hero? Then, they’d be court martialed. Assume by manhandle you mean ‘torture the fuck out of.’ And, by the way, were your country invaded, would you pick up a gun? Would you be a ‘Hero’? If so, should you be tortured until you can’t stand it any more, then analy raped? > [@New Iskander](#): > > - _We are Americans! We can’t do torture! We stay home and only follow UN orders!_ What are you talking about? We obviously follow the Smoking Man’s orders. Duh. And, yes, we are Americans, we are **supposed** to stand for justice and freedom, not raping little kids and killing innocents. **And to remind you, asshole, most of the people in Abu Graib were INNOCENT**. Ahem, > [@New Iskander](#): > > - _We are Americans! We can’t do torture! We stay home and never intervene anywhere!_ Funny, I could’ve sworn that in 2000 a candidate **ran on a no nation building platform**. I wish I could remember his name. Tree? Shrub? Topiary? And, yes, we’re not supposed to be the World Police, sorry. > [@New Iskander](#): > > But what if we get attacked at home? > > - _Well, then and only then, may be, while it’s still deplorable and un-American, at least torture can be understood…_ What the fuck does this even _mean_ you hateful lunatic? War is hell, grok? As such, war should be avoided. Defensive wars are just wars. Torture is still wrong. > [@New Iskander](#): > > So there is a case to be made for understanding US soldiers sometimes doing brutal things to enemies, after all? Erunh? I’ve just crossed over into the Bizzaro Dope, right? For fuck’s sake, how have you made a case for US soldiers violating international law and torturing innocents? > [@New Iskander](#): > > Now tell me, what all those distinctions matter to soldiers fighting deep in enemy territory? It’s easy for you to sit at home and quibble, “Definitely no brutalities in Iraq; no, not in Sudan, either; in defence of the homeland, may be, but very carefully…”, No moron, no brutality (“torture the fuck out of”) **ever**. Not here, not there. Not in a train, not in a plane, not on a boat, not with a goat. I will not torture people Asshole-you-are. -Caveat: The **only** case in which I could possibly support torture is if a specific terrorist was captured with time sensitive information, and **even then** , I would only support it if ‘torture writs’ could only be granted by judges once shown a proponderance of evidence. No freakin’ Cowboys. Even then I’d still feel like I needed to shower after hearing about another human being being tortured. > [@New Iskander](#): > > What do you think would happen in Abu Ghraib if US servicemen lost control of the situation? Certainly some “real Minutemen”, like Mr. Amin, were trying to achieve just that by starting armed revolts. You’re right. If our soldiers hadn’t been sodomizing young boys, all hell would have broken loose. Luckily the road to peace leads through the ramming of foreign objects up the asses of innocent young boys. > [@New Iskander](#): > > I really wish people like you would be forced to spend time in some country where Heroes like Mr. Amin hold sway. That would teach you a few things what a real torture is. Um… so, like, ‘their torture is worse than ours! Mommmmmmy! I’m tellllllling!’ Torturing human beings is a bad thing. Torturing **innocent** people is an abomination upon the face of Justice. Idiot. > [@New Iskander](#): > > And as for Mr. Amin, I wouldn’t urinate on him personally, but I’m sure glad someone had. May you some day be arrested for a crime you have not commited and ‘kept in line’ by the methods you endorse. That would be karma, in a sense. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/42 "2005-01-13T22:50:59Z")
Is it your judgment, **New** , that the man is not a competent witness? If so on what rule of evidence or procedure do you rely? Don’t you suppose that the prosecutors at the court martial would have objected to him testifying at all if there was some rule that rendered him incompetent to testify? Or is your screed based, perhaps, on the substance of the testimony and not the witness by which it was presented? What, Sir, are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/43 "2005-01-13T22:55:19Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Did you read my OP? It was about a petty criminal and an enemy combattant giving evidence for prosecution in the trial of US serviceman. Please re-read. Criminals give testimony in courts all the time. It’s up to the jury to decide their credibility. What’s your point? (In other words, what **Spavined Gelding** just said.) ---
**Author:** ![blackhobyah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blackhobyah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blackhobyah)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/44 "2005-01-13T22:55:51Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Did you read my OP? It was about a petty criminal and an enemy combattant giving evidence for prosecution in the trial of US serviceman. Please re-read. Aaargh. Combattant is spelled combatant, unless you are discussing heraldic devices. Oh yeah, and torture is wrong, especially if you are supposed to be one of the good guys. What Abu Ghraib shows us is that the good guys, given power over others, bad leadership and no internal or external ethical controls, are no different that the bad guys. The whole thing is shameful, as is the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Okaybear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc348/32.png) [@Okaybear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okaybear)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/45 "2005-01-13T23:00:57Z")
> [@](#): > > You know a better way? You wanna try giving out beads and chocolates? Um, **New Iskander**? You think maybe, just maybe, there’s a middle ground somewhere between chocolate and torture? If the US Army “has” to resort to torture to keep its prisoners in check, then there’s absolutely no possible way we can bring order to Iraq. Stating what’s already been pointed out - torture would only lead to increased hostility towards American troops. If you honestly believe that the “benefits” of torture outweigh the negative consequences, then you have your head too far up your ass to see straight. Oh, and believe me, I’m in favor of the war - this has nothing to do with pacifism, just common sense. [Ducks to avoid pitting by other Dopers] ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/46 "2005-01-13T23:07:35Z")
> [@Okaybear](#): > > Oh, and believe me, I’m in favor of the war - this has nothing to do with pacifism, just common sense. [Ducks to avoid pitting by other Dopers] No pitting from me. I believe it’s entirely possible to be for the war and have your head screwed on tight, I just haven’t met many people like that. You seem to be part of that rare breed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/47 "2005-01-13T23:12:04Z")
Yeah, no pitting from me either. I disagree with you, and would glady (in another thread, at least until this is hijacked in a page or two) debate the war. But good, honest, honorable Americans support the war for what they believe to be valid reasons, and I can respect that. Hateful assholes like the OP take it to a whole other level, which is why his thread is fast becoming his own pitting. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/48 "2005-01-13T23:12:49Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > Is it your judgment, **New** , that the man is not a competent witness? Obviously he is, since his testimony is admitted. I was asking, was that the best the prosecution has got: a testimony from enemy combatant, devoted to harm US soldiers in any possible way? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/49 "2005-01-13T23:15:46Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Obviously he is, since his testimony is admitted. I was asking, was that the best the prosecution has got: a testimony from enemy combatant, devoted to harm US soldiers in any possible way? Um… who better to testify about being tortured than someone we tortured? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/50 "2005-01-13T23:16:45Z")
Can you really only reply to a single comment at a time and gloss over the rest waiting for the next barrage to hit you? Really man, this is sounding a bit masochistic. Unless you’re just doing this(as I suspect), for the attention you get from it… That would be something else entirely. Sam ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/51 "2005-01-13T23:16:55Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Obviously he is, since his testimony is admitted. I was asking, was that the best the prosecution has got: a testimony from enemy combatant, devoted to harm US soldiers in any possible way? As opposed to testimony from a soldier who who will harm prisoners in any possible way? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/52 "2005-01-13T23:57:43Z")
**New Islander** , let me tell yo how brave I think you are ! You are expressing opinions and knowledge about people that are not amenable to the prevailing conscience that most people are willing to live and let live. You have been defending prsion guards. Can anyone recall a movie where prison guards come across as valuable human beings besides “the Green Mile”? These guards have already been convicted. Every SDMB poster should imagine their loved ones being blown up by a road side bomb before passing judgement. Life is so fuckin easy for those whose granduncles and grandfathers fought and died to ensure for us a life free of despotism and anarchy. And there are countless heroes who’ve performed questionable deeds worthy of a pitting.(My grandfather thrust a knife into a german soldier without asking any questions first) So while dopers might pit Ms England, they might consider the fact that the guy on the other side of the leash, just tried to blow up her child’s father. Well at least he was the guy’s compadre. Big Dif.Now if Ms England sawed off someones’s head… ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/53 "2005-01-13T23:58:42Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Did you read my OP? It was about a petty criminal and an enemy combattant giving evidence for prosecution in the trial of US serviceman. Please re-read. Listen you fucking idiot. Do you even understand who the prosecution is? It’s not Hamilton Burger, trust me on this. It’s the United States government. Do you not understand that? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/54 "2005-01-14T00:01:13Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > **New Islander** , let me tell yo how brave I think you are ! You are expressing opinions and knowledge about people that are not amenable to the prevailing conscience that most people are willing to live and let live. You have been defending prsion guards. Did you read **casdave** ’s post in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/55 "2005-01-14T00:10:41Z")
**New Iskander** , if your OP serves any purpose being beyond hateful and inflammatory it’s so miniscule as to be invisible. Consider yourself warned. Either ratchet down your bile or we will dispense with your presence. This hateful mess is closed. TVeblen Pit mod [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432.md?page=2)