# Victims on flights 11, 175, 77 and 93. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027 "2014-08-07T13:18:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/81 "2014-08-12T09:06:55Z")
And just how loud do you think a plane is that it can be heard over the sound of what must have been thousand of emergency vehicles, alarms, a roaring fire, people screaming, huge billowing smoke, and the sounds of people falling to their death? You know they travel somewhat close to the speed of sound? ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/82 "2014-08-12T09:11:53Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > I won’t see my “relative by marriage” for a few days, but I will let you know if I have any success. > > The “questions” I alluded to earlier were ones which he had previously brought up in similar encounters; the one that sticks in my mind was his assertion that many of the passers by said they heard no sound of an incoming jet prior to the towers being struck. Whether he was correct or not I have no idea , and tbh I don’t really care … AFAIAC, the sheer volume of people who would have to have been involved in such an atrocity and who would have had to remain silent is proof positive that the CTers are wildly mistaken. Tell him to stand at street level in downtown Manhattan and listen for something one hundred floors up, even something as loud as a jet. The truth is that if 9/11 was a conspiracy, the conspirators are so advanced and powerful that there is exactly nothing anyone can do in their lives without the approval of the conspiracy. That is the world this person lives in. They have absolutely no personal agency whatsoever. They live or die at the whims of the government/Jews/Illuminati/etc and knowing the truth only makes them a target. All the partisan politics in the US? Complete smokescreen because Obama has to be in on it too. The entire world is a smokescreen and everything is a lie. That is the kind of power it would take to make 9/11 conspiracy theories true. I can’t fathom why anyone would discover the truth and then pick the wrong side! You’re (royal you) dealing with people who murder thousands of their own citizens for fun and profit and you want to oppose them and try to expose their schemes to the world?! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/83 "2014-08-12T09:37:04Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > … the one that sticks in my mind was his assertion that many of the passers by said they heard no sound of an incoming jet prior to the towers being struck… Which is exactly what you would expect for two reasons. The first physical and the second psychological. The physical reason is that planes (especially I suspect those diving towards a building) travel at close to the speed of sound and are a long way away from street level, such that their sound would probably arrive at street level not long before they hit. Also, New York is noisy. The psychological reason is that people don’t remember the trivial and mundane and don’t have nearly as much recollection and attention span as they think they do. Most just aren’t going to notice or remember the sound of a jet plane. It’s too ordinary. It would be only after the planes hit that they gained people’s attention. It’s like asking people standing at the side of a bustling street what the red car was doing just before it smashed: unless the people happened to be looking in its direction, they are going to be totally blank on the subject up till the sound of the smash grabs their attention. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/84 "2014-08-12T10:35:10Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > Apparently some of the metadata for the obituary photo the AP/CNN used for Mark Bingham (one of the guys on Flight 93) had a creation date of 8/30/2001, which is “proof” that the obits were being written up before 9/11, because part of the whole conspiracy would be creating fake heroes and legends to help prod the country to war (or something). > > Googling around a bit turned up that the metadata does show a creation date of 8/30/2001, but also with a time of exactly midnight. An obituary photo of another victim (from the Pentagon) had a metadata of 2/5/2000, also at exactly midnight. So the real explanation is likely that some sort of bug in the metadata set the dates wrong, rather than it being evidence that the photo was created/uploaded just a few days before 9/11. Didn’t this particular bit of idiocy come from Simon Shack of Cluesforum “fame”? I had the misfortune to look through a thread on there. He claims that all of the victim photos have been used to create fake “family” shots by Photoshopping in parents, spouses, babies, pets etc. Because the victim photos themselves don’t show these other people! In case you hadn’t seen them, the “official” victim photos have generally been edited and cleaned up so you don’t get half a person’s arm around the victim’s shoulder, etc. Shack manages to get this process totally backwards and claim that the people who were edited out, were actually edited in. It takes a special kind of logic twist to get inside the CT mind. ---
**Author:** ![misling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@misling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misling)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/85 "2014-08-12T13:44:27Z")
I’ve got my own (probably silly) idea about CT - how it works, I mean. Noticing patterns in our situation and surroundings is an important part of the human brain/psychology. I think the pattern-spotting part of the CT’ers brain might have gone into overdrive - possibly pushed by emotions (desire to know more than others, fear of being out of control, I don’t know what). They are seeing a pattern that isn’t there - but they DO see it, so it’s convincing to them. I know. Totally amateur psychology. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/86 "2014-08-12T13:56:19Z")
[Portraits 9/11/01](http://www.amazon.com/Portraits-Collected-Grief-York-Times/dp/0805072225). A collection of all the obits of people killed in the 9/11 attacks, collected and published by the New York Times. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/87 "2014-08-12T14:14:01Z")
[Here](http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/portraits/) is the NYT’s website collecting all of the Portraits of Grief. I _think_ the site may be accessible even if you don’t pay for digital access to the NYT. Note too that more of the people profiled worked in the buildings, or were first responders than were on the planes. But that’s because numerically, there were more of them. Also, note that there are 2400 of these brief obits, so they didn’t write about every person. (I think, for example, they left off anyone whose family objected.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/88 "2014-08-12T16:55:55Z")
Since the substance of the OP was answered in the first few posts, and this has become much more about the psychology of conspiracy theorists, let’s move this over to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/89 "2014-08-12T18:12:34Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Punch him square in the face, then deny you did it. Ask for a cite. Continue to deny. > > Repeat as needed. Ah, the awesome [‘Creationism vs. Baseball Bat’](http://abstractfactory.blogspot.com/2005/10/only-debate-on-intelligent-design-that.html) method. Always a classic. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/90 "2014-08-13T02:02:33Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > … the one that sticks in my mind was his assertion that many of the passers by said they heard no sound of an incoming jet prior to the towers being struck. I could be misremembering after 13 years, but I do recall a news camera just happened to be set up on a street below, filming something else, when it caught the first plane hitting the tower above. They showed that footage repeatedly in the wake of 9/11, as I recall. Does anyone else remember that? Ah yes. A little googling found it. [This is it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNw0jOhVJ3A). However, my understanding is that these CT creeps – and creeps _are_ what they are – have an answer for this, just like they have a bullshit answer for everything. EDIT: This particular showing of the video is without sound, but I recall hearing the sound 13 years ago, and you sure can hear a plane coming in. That fireman in the video clearly looked up at the sound, and the cameraman certainly heard it too, as I doubt he would have turned his camera up just on a fireman looking up. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/91 "2014-08-13T03:51:31Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I could be misremembering after 13 years, but I do recall a news camera just happened to be set up on a street below, filming something else, when it caught the first plane hitting the tower above. They showed that footage repeatedly in the wake of 9/11, as I recall. Does anyone else remember that? > > Ah yes. A little googling found it. [This is it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNw0jOhVJ3A). However, my understanding is that these CT creeps – and creeps _are_ what they are – have an answer for this, just like they have a bullshit answer for everything. > > EDIT: This particular showing of the video is without sound, but I recall hearing the sound 13 years ago, and you sure can hear a plane coming in. That fireman in the video clearly looked up at the sound, and the cameraman certainly heard it too, as I doubt he would have turned his camera up just on a fireman looking up. That’s from the documentary [9/11](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_%28film%29). It’s worth a watch, though very sad and shocking, obviously. It was made by happenstance. The filmmakers were out making a movie about a rookie fireman’s first day. They obviously had no idea what was going to happen, but had the presence of mind to stay filming. It’s just dumb luck that the camera swung up as the plane hit. ---
**Author:** ![dofe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/92 "2014-08-13T04:11:03Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I could be misremembering after 13 years, but I do recall a news camera just happened to be set up on a street below, filming something else, when it caught the first plane hitting the tower above. They showed that footage repeatedly in the wake of 9/11, as I recall. Does anyone else remember that? > > Ah yes. A little googling found it. [This is it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNw0jOhVJ3A). However, my understanding is that these CT creeps – and creeps _are_ what they are – have an answer for this, just like they have a bullshit answer for everything. > > EDIT: This particular showing of the video is without sound, but I recall hearing the sound 13 years ago, and you sure can hear a plane coming in. That fireman in the video clearly looked up at the sound, and the cameraman certainly heard it too, as I doubt he would have turned his camera up just on a fireman looking up. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PMQWzdc175A#t=389) shows the second attack and you can clearly hear the sound of the jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/93 "2014-08-13T04:24:43Z")
One thing about the “controlled demolition” theory that never made sense: Why? Why, after two 767s smashed into the twin towers, would there be a \*need \*for demolition? Is the damage done by two 767s not enough? CTs just don’t think things through. ---
**Author:** ![vietnamvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/90db22/32.png) [@vietnamvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vietnamvet)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/94 "2014-08-19T04:02:49Z")
I have a question that no one has given me an answer. Why did Dick c. keep the air defenses down around D.C. some 55 minutes after the WTC was hit ? He was even told an airliner (flight 77) was headed towards D.C. He let it happen. Was he still working for Halliburton? Remember his lied about WMD. This should come up in the up coming trial. [http://quietmike.org/2013/06/16/the-bush-administration-on-trial/](http://quietmike.org/2013/06/16/the-bush-administration-on-trial/) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/95 "2014-08-19T04:20:46Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > … > > My response to him whenever this subject arises is the Occam’s Razor approach … I don’t debate the facts, I just say that if it was in fact a government conspiracy so many people would have had to be involved that someone would have blown the whistle by now. Mine is my neighbor. A nice guy, but woefully misinformed. But I keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/96 "2014-08-19T04:20:52Z")
> [@vietnamvet](#): > > I have a question that no one has given me an answer. > Why did Dick c. keep the air defenses down around D.C. some 55 minutes after the WTC was hit ? > He was even told an airliner (flight 77) was headed towards D.C. He let it happen. > Was he still working for Halliburton? Remember his lied about WMD. > This should come up in the up coming trial. > [http://quietmike.org/2013/06/16/the-bush-administration-on-trial/](http://quietmike.org/2013/06/16/the-bush-administration-on-trial/) What trial? Is there an actual trial scheduled? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/97 "2014-08-19T11:40:03Z")
> [@vietnamvet](#): > > I have a question that no one has given me an answer. > Why did Dick c. keep the air defenses down around D.C. some 55 minutes after the WTC was hit ? _What_ air defenses? ---
**Author:** ![vietnamvet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/90db22/32.png) [@vietnamvet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vietnamvet)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/98 "2014-08-19T11:59:42Z")
Now, how do you explain building #7 ? not hit by any “Plane” . But , all 3 buildings fell just like controlled demo. even tho they suffered 3 types of damage. As for the pentagon. that was like 55 minutes after the WTC was “hit”. Dick kept NORAD down and out. even after being told flight 77 was on the way. Hmmmm. would Dick lie about WMD? start here. [www.ae911truth.org/](http://www.ae911truth.org/) or [rethink911.org/](http://rethink911.org/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/99 "2014-08-19T12:11:21Z")
> [@vietnamvet](#): > > Now, how do you explain building #7 ? not hit by any “Plane” . But , all 3 buildings fell just like controlled demo. even tho they suffered 3 types of damage. As for the pentagon. that was like 55 minutes after the WTC was “hit”. Dick kept NORAD down and out. even after being told flight 77 was on the way. Hmmmm. would Dick lie about WMD? > start here. [www.ae911truth.org/](http://www.ae911truth.org/) > or [rethink911.org/](http://rethink911.org/) They didn’t fall “just like controlled demo”. The collapse of WTC 7 is explained [here](http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027/100 "2014-08-19T12:13:28Z")
Hoo boy. Here we go… > [@vietnamvet](#): > > Now, how do you explain building #7 ? not hit by any “Plane” . But hit by the flaming, falling debris of the of the other buildings. > [@](#): > > But , all 3 buildings fell just like controlled demo. even tho they suffered 3 types of damage. How did you expect them to fall? Show your math. > [@](#): > > As for the pentagon. that was like 55 minutes after the WTC was “hit”. Dick kept NORAD down and out. What was NORAD going to do? > [@](#): > > even after being told flight 77 was on the way. Hmmmm. would Dick lie about WMD? Irrelevant. > [@](#): > > start here. [www.ae911truth.org/](http://www.ae911truth.org/) > or [rethink911.org/](http://rethink911.org/) To complete sites of utter horses hit. This first one being run by a conman who thinks dropping cardboard boxes onto each other proves something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-on-flights-11-175-77-and-93/695027.md?page=6)