# "Victor/ Victoria" (1982) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 28, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291 "2004-07-28T17:30:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/21 "2004-07-28T23:02:08Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I still don’t get the police inspector and the “greatest disguise in the world” bit. Did he enter the dressing room, see a naked Robert Preston, and not know he _wasn’t_ “Victor” ? That strains credibility a bit too far for me, especially since the theatre would have been full of posters of Victor, and Robert Preston sure don’t look like Julie Andrews, wang notwithstanding. IIRC, the private (not police) inspector was extremely nearsighted and missing his glasses in that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/22 "2004-07-28T23:31:17Z")
Huzzah! I missed chiming in on the last thread (too much life, not enough SDMB), but I wouldn’t miss this one for the world. It may be a peice of fluff, but I love it. I usually end up humming _You & Me_ for at least three days afterward. Leslie Ann Warren grates on my nerves no end, but in this movie she actually manages to use that annoying grating voice and plays the dumb blond moll beautifully. I do agree that Julie Andrews has neither the sex appeal nor the youth to pull off the role of Victor(ia), but it’s the director’s wife, and he insists on using her in everything. Whaddaya gonna do? At least she has a decent voice. Robert Preston is perfect, perfect, perfect; what a great role for him. He has so many good lines, which I’ve shamelessly stolen over the years. My favorite: “Shame is an unhappy emotion invented by pietists to control the human race.” (I may have mangled that…) ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/23 "2004-07-29T00:13:15Z")
Ach, I see, Fraulein. –snaps leather gloves, departs stage left– ---
**Author:** ![supervenusfreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@supervenusfreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supervenusfreak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/24 "2004-07-29T02:08:19Z")
Has anyone else noticed that Lesley Ann Warren’s performance as Norma is a direct lift of [Judy Holliday’s](http://www.wtv-zone.com/lumina/judy/main.html) performance as Billie Dawn in “Born Yesterday”? Ya gotta love a dame! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/25 "2004-07-29T02:14:22Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Hmmm, who would have been good in the Edwards version? Well someone in her 20s, for one thing: 47-year-old Julie Andrews as a “struggling young actress” is pretty depressing, and (bless her little cotton socks) she never had any sex appeal even when she was young. _IN YOUR OPINION_. I think Julie in her 20s/30s (the “Jerusha Hale” & “Maria von Trapp” era) was plenty sexy- beautiful skin, pretty eyes, the “bad girl” so obviously underneath and the voice (both singing and speaking) all combined to give her a certain vanilla ice cream sensuality that obviously appealed to quite a few men (she was the number 1 box-office star in the world for several years). Supposedly she and Edwards began dating when he sarcastically said “she’s so damned sweet she probably has violets growing between her legs” and she, when it was relayed to her, sent him a bouquet of violets with the attached note “how do they smell?”. My favorite two lines from V/V are Toddy’s bitchicisms: “We have a celebrity in our midst- Miss [name eludes me], star of stage, screen and an occasional circus…” and “the last time I saw a specimen like this they had to shoot the horse”. Alex Karras’s coming out was also a great moment. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/26 "2004-07-29T02:17:55Z")
Trivia: Renate Muller committed suicide on Julie Andrews’ 2nd birthday. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/27 "2004-07-29T02:25:00Z")
Of course the ultimate irony would be to cast an androgynous \*\*male \*\*actor as Victor[ia] - preferably someone unknown with an ambiguous name. Just to keep everyone guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/28 "2004-07-29T03:42:06Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Of course the ultimate irony would be to cast an androgynous \*\*male \*\*actor as Victor[ia] - preferably someone unknown with an ambiguous name. Just to keep everyone guessing. The same opportunity was missed during a _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ episode titled “The Outcast”. A alien race was introduced as androgynous (though I’d say “genderless” was more accurate) and one of their number started a romance with Riker. The episode made some rather heavy-handed pleas for tolerance of (implicitly) homosexuality. Trouble was, the character was played by attractive actress Melinda Culea (“Amy” from _The A-Team_) whose feminine appeal was apparant even through the heavy makeup, and the episode lost almost all its impact by not having Riker fall in love with a character played by a male actor. The Riker character’s masculinity wasn’t never remotely in doubt because it was too obvious that this was just another hot alien babe, such as Kirk nailed every other week, and that strikes me as cowardly. The episode also made some comical generalizations, but subtlety wasn’t exactly Jeri Taylor’s strong suit. ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/29 "2004-07-29T04:06:43Z")
Ahhh. I _love_ this movie! The daughter and I watch it at least once a month. > [@Mockingbird](#): > > Am I the only one who found the Easter Egg? Wha!? Where? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/30 "2004-07-29T07:41:47Z")
Don’t y’all make a made rush and trample someone, but the original _Viktor und Viktoria_ (1933) is available for purchase on VHS from the [German Language Video Center](http://www.germanvideo.com/60_years/60_desc_u-v.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/31 "2004-07-29T13:24:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Of course the ultimate irony would be to cast an androgynous \*\*male \*\*actor as Victor[ia] - preferably someone unknown with an ambiguous name. Just to keep everyone guessing. Like, say, Jaye Davidson? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/32 "2004-07-29T13:33:23Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Trivia: Renate Muller committed suicide on Julie Andrews’ 2nd birthday. Committed suicide, my Aunt Fanny—she was _pushed_. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/33 "2004-07-29T13:54:06Z")
What’s the story on her death, **Eve**? (BTW – did you ever see “De-Lovely”? What did you think?/hijack) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/34 "2004-07-29T14:12:43Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Don’t y’all make a made rush and trample someone, but the original _Viktor und Viktoria_ (1933) is available for purchase on VHS from the [German Language Video Center](http://www.germanvideo.com/60_years/60_desc_u-v.html). Ooooh, thanks for the link—I am having a terrible time searching for Renate Muller/Mueller, though. As for her death, I am pretty much convinced she was pushed from a hospital window—the Nazis did not want to lose another star to the West, and Renate refused to give up her Jewish boyfriend, who had fled to Paris. It’s possible she juimped, but if she did, it’s because she was being hounded by Goebbels. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/35 "2004-07-29T15:04:20Z")
If you google “Renate Müller DVD” (the ü is made with ALT+129) it brings up [this page](http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dvideo-dvd-de%26field-actor%3DRenate%20M%FCller/302-0035090-7020860) from the German language [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) which features several of her films on DVD & VHS, including Viktor und Viktoria, Das Flötenkonzert von Sanssouci, Sohn der weißen Berge - Das Geheimnis von Zermatt, and Allotria. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/36 "2004-07-29T15:56:17Z")
Ooooh . . . If only I didn’t have that pesky rent to pay this month . . . ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/37 "2004-07-29T19:02:13Z")
Julie Andrews was 47 at the time? Wow, she certainly looked young to me, and I was just a kid at the time, so 47 should have seemed incredibly old to me back then. I love this movie, I have it on tape. ---
**Author:** ![ThatDuckIsEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@ThatDuckIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatDuckIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/38 "2004-07-29T20:36:04Z")
love love love this movie. “Sweet Adelaide”, the cockroach scene = comic gold. Watching tons of musicals as a youngster I missed a lot of the “adult themed” nuances. Same goes for this one, I just enjoyed all the music and dancing. I agree that Julie Andrews seems old for the role. Even watching it at 14 years old it puzzled me. But only because I’d been watching The Sound of Music every year on TV for about 10 years and I figured she had to be a grandmother by then. I agree 100% with **Sampiro** that she was a very attractive lady in her day. And **Otto** , James Garner is totally sexy. TOTALLY! For all the reasons **aruvqan** said. Bravo! I love this club. Can’t wait for the next pic! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/39 "2004-07-31T12:08:14Z")
As I’ve mentioned on these boards before, I’m an occasional [drag king](http://www.geocities.com/yellowlamia/drag.html) performer. Strictly amateur, but I’ve landed a couple of small-time prizes. **Victor/Victoria** isn’t what inspired me to take this up (Victoria is, after all, a professional drag _queen_), but it’s often helped me explain the whole drag king concept to people who didn’t get it. But although **Victor/Victoria** is light on the drag king moments, I like it a lot and always enjoy watching it. Somehow I think it falls short of being truly “great”, though. I think **Otto** has a good point about the detective subplot. However, this did give us one of my favorite little movie moments – the broken stool gag. Others have already remarked on Preston and Warren’s fine performances, but it bears repeating. They’re both wonderful! **V/V** is probably the lightest and most comedic of the “adult musicals” of the late '70s/early '80s. Movies like **Cabaret** , **Nashville** , and **All That Jazz** certainly have their funny moments, but **V/V** doesn’t have a dark cloud hanging over it the way they do. Whether this is an advantage or a disadvantage depends on what you expect from a film. I can see how one might consider **V/V** to be rather fluffy, but at the same time it’s fairly radical in portraying gay characters that are neither tragic nor cuddly-but-sexless. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291/40 "2004-07-31T13:30:50Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > The same opportunity was missed during a _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ episode titled “The Outcast”. A alien race was introduced as androgynous (though I’d say “genderless” was more accurate) and one of their number started a romance with Riker. The episode made some rather heavy-handed pleas for tolerance of (implicitly) homosexuality. Trouble was, the character was played by attractive actress Melinda Culea (“Amy” from _The A-Team_) whose feminine appeal was apparant even through the heavy makeup, and the episode lost almost all its impact by not having Riker fall in love with a character played by a male actor. The Riker character’s masculinity wasn’t never remotely in doubt because it was too obvious that this was just another hot alien babe, such as Kirk nailed every other week, and that strikes me as cowardly. Another missed opportunity was in the episode that introduced the Trill, a symbiotic species. Beverly had a hot and heavy affair with the Trill ambasador. When the Trill host body was killed, the symbiot (the brain, for non-Trekkers) was transferred to a new host – a _female_ host. At which point, Beverly discovered she wasn’t as “enlightened” as she thought! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victor-victoria-1982/257291.md?page=1)