# Video of police shooting man in St. Louis (near Ferguson, MO) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090 "2014-08-21T14:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/41 "2014-08-21T19:25:17Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I will agree that over-militarization of the Police is a problem. It is also clear that THIS particular department does not train for de-escalation. However, everyone is an expert at what should have been done when it is SO EASY to do so. We have all day to discuss and argue this. Yes. It’s almost like we’re trying to use thought and reason to analyze the situation and try and come up with a better way to handle it! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/42 "2014-08-21T19:34:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes. It’s almost like we’re trying to use thought and reason to analyze the situation and try and come up with a better way to handle it! No, you’re using thought and reason to second guess the guy who had a handful of seconds to deal with a knife wielding crazy person, that was bringing the knife wielding crazy right up to his face. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/43 "2014-08-21T19:37:20Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > No, you’re using thought and reason to second guess the guy who had a handful of seconds to deal with a knife wielding crazy person, that was bringing the knife wielding crazy right up to his face. Five to seven feet is not typically described as “right up to” someone’s face. But you’re right that this second-guessing is cruel. If **iiandyiii** isn’t careful his second-guessing might kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/44 "2014-08-21T19:37:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > No, you’re using thought and reason to second guess the guy who had a handful of seconds to deal with a knife wielding crazy person, that was bringing the knife wielding crazy right up to his face. I think it’s possible to maintain compassion for the cops who probably reacted as they thought best while still maintaining the possibility that they should have acted in a different way. It seems reasonable to look at the video and talk about whether, just maybe, it could have been handled better and, just maybe, we could learn something from it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/45 "2014-08-21T19:47:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, I think having one person talk to him instead of having three guys yell at him with their weapons drawn might’ve helped. OK, then give your evidence that it would have worked on a dangerous lunatic with a knife. Keep in mind that he was advancing on them yelling “Shoot me!” already. > [@](#): > > Since you didn’t address the other two ideas I brought up, I’ll take that as confirmation that you think they might’ve helped. Make up whatever you like. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/46 "2014-08-21T19:50:30Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I was already on the other side of the police cruiser. Sorry, you weren’t fast enough - the crazy guy walked up to within a few feet of you, and then suddenly charged and stabbed you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/47 "2014-08-21T19:52:29Z")
I wonder if part of the problem is that people have seen too many action movies where Bruce Willis or The Rock or somebody disarms gun/knife/etc-wielding attackers without breaking a sweat. In real life, a disturbed person walking towards you with a knife is _dangerous_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/48 "2014-08-21T19:57:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, then give your evidence that it would have worked on a dangerous lunatic with a knife. I deliberately didn’t use the word “would.” I said it _might_ have helped. Saying it _would_ have worked would’ve been almost as ludicrous demanding a cite for a hypothetical situation. [But there are times the police can talk dangerous people out of hurting themselves or others.](http://krqe.com/2014/04/09/lomas-shut-down-between-eubank-and-tomasita/) It’ll never work all the time, but it should be the first option. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/49 "2014-08-21T20:01:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [But there are times the police can talk dangerous people out of hurting themselves or others.](http://krqe.com/2014/04/09/lomas-shut-down-between-eubank-and-tomasita/) It’ll never work all the time, but it should be the first option. > [@](#): > > Police say he was pointing the gun at himself and they were able to talk him into putting it down. Hell of a lot easier to talk someone down when they’re not threatening YOU with their weapon. I’d bet good money that this guy wouldn’t have been shot if he hadn’t acted threateningly to the police with his weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/50 "2014-08-21T20:03:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sorry, you weren’t fast enough - the crazy guy walked up to within a few feet of you, and then suddenly charged and stabbed you. > > Regards, > Shodan No, silly, when iiandyiii went to the other side of the cruiser, the crazy man got in and drove off. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/51 "2014-08-21T20:06:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If **iiandyiii** isn’t careful his second-guessing might kill someone. True - if there is enough petty sniping even after an obviously justified shooting, eventually a police officer might hesitate for a half second and get killed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/52 "2014-08-21T20:14:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Hell of a lot easier to talk someone down when they’re not threatening YOU with their weapon. Yes, much. This guy must’ve had one of those guns you can’t aim at someone else by turning your wrist a little bit. This is hair splitting, and it’s not even good hair splitting. They’re both very dangerous situations. The point is this: police are sometimes able to defuse situations like this. They did so in that Albuquerque case. They didn’t do it in the St. Louis case, and there’s no evidence they made an effort. > [@Shodan](#): > > True - if there is enough petty sniping even after an obviously justified shooting, eventually a police officer might hesitate for a half second and get killed. In the heat of the moment, police make decisions based on internet comments. That’s definitely a thing that happens in the real world. That’s why this doesn’t read as an incredibly weird attempt to stifle criticism of the police. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/53 "2014-08-21T20:42:44Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I wonder if part of the problem is that people have seen too many action movies where Bruce Willis or The Rock or somebody disarms gun/knife/etc-wielding attackers without breaking a sweat. In real life, a disturbed person walking towards you with a knife is _dangerous_. Absolutely. > [@Marley23](#): > > The point is this: police are sometimes able to defuse situations like this. They did so in that Albuquerque case. They didn’t do it in the St. Louis case, and there’s no evidence they made an effort. And sometimes they can’t. They had about 14 seconds total. There wasn’t a lot of time for discussion or strategery. Sometimes the other party takes the decision out of it. If Clyde Barrow was in the middle of Times Square shooting off a BAR there will be people saying “But did you have to kill him? Maybe if you shot him in the leg…” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/54 "2014-08-21T20:48:13Z")
Maybe this question will be illuminating: If there were a police tactic that kept the officers reasonably safe and presented at least some small possibility of defusing this situation without deadly force, would the police be obligated to try it–regardless of whether deadly force was justified? Because I can’t quite tell if there’s just an empirical disagreement here over whether such tactics exist, or whether this is a matter of principles in which some people believe that if a person presents a deadly threat then they _ought_ to be killed period. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/55 "2014-08-21T20:53:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > And sometimes they can’t. Good, I think we’re both clear on what “sometimes” means. > [@](#): > > They had about 14 seconds total. There wasn’t a lot of time for discussion or strategery. They had about 14 seconds in part because of how and where they started. Unless you mean their decision to get very close to Powell and get out with their guns drawn was _not_ the result of strategy and tactics. That proposal seems kind of insulting to the police. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/56 "2014-08-21T21:00:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sorry, you weren’t fast enough - the crazy guy walked up to within a few feet of you, and then suddenly charged and stabbed you. > > Regards, > Shodan You said I had 10 seconds. I would have gone to the other side of the cruiser as soon as I saw the guy had a knife. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/57 "2014-08-21T21:03:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They had about 14 seconds in part because of how and where they started. Unless you mean their decision to get very close to Powell and get out with their guns drawn was _not_ the result of strategy and tactics. That proposal seems kind of insulting to the police. Yes they had to get close. There was this guy with a knife that was walking around where there were innocent people. If stopped much further away and he stabbed someone there can you imagine the outrage? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/58 "2014-08-21T21:12:11Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yes they had to get close. There was this guy with a knife that was walking around where there were innocent people. Based on the video there doesn’t seem to have been anyone with 40 or 50 feet of him. > [@](#): > > If stopped much further away and he stabbed someone there can you imagine the outrage? They might be surprised the cops couldn’t stop someone from running 40 or 50 feet and stabbing someone, yes. But in that situation I think people would understand why the police opened fire. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/59 "2014-08-21T21:18:14Z")
**Marley** , do you think 14 seconds was enough time for the officers to process the situation, analyse the exigency of the circumstances, determine the level of threat, and communicate with each other while postulating a appropriate plan of action? Or did the man’s failure to heed instructions lead to a point of no return for him and the officers? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/60 "2014-08-21T21:24:58Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > **Marley** , do you think 14 seconds was enough time for the officers to process the situation, analyse the exigency of the circumstances, determine the level of threat, and communicate with each other while postulating a appropriate plan of action? Do you believe police are trained? Do you think they got close to the guy and drew their weapons based on their training? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=4)