# Video of police shooting man in St. Louis (near Ferguson, MO) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090 "2014-08-21T14:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/81 "2014-08-22T12:40:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No you didn’t - you stopped to think if retreating was against department policy or not, and he charged you while you were thinking and stabbed you. > > Regards, > Shodan Wait – I’m the PC. I get to decide what my character does! You’re the DM, so you get to decide what NPCs like the knife-guy do, but if I say I went around the car, then I went around the friggin’ car! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/82 "2014-08-22T13:35:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The issue in a lot of these situations is that police feel obligated to essentially impose a death sentence as a response to relatively minor crimes that get exacerbated because someone isn’t “cooperating”. Do you believe coming at someone with a knife is a relatively minor crime? [QUOTE=iandyiiii] You really did a number on that dude made of straw! That scarecrow ain’t gettin’ up anytime soon. He’s out cold. [/QUOTE] It wasn’t a strawman. See below - > [@](#): > > If a cop feels shooting someone is preferable to them having to temporarily retreat, or talking someone down, or getting injured, then I don’t think they should be cops. **brickbacon** said very clearly that the police should be willing to be injured - in this case, stabbed - rather than shoot. So **Loach**'s response is entirely on point. [QUOTE=Richard Parker] Maybe this question will be illuminating: If there were a police tactic that kept the officers reasonably safe and presented at least some small possibility of defusing this situation without deadly force, would the police be obligated to try it–regardless of whether deadly force was justified? [/QUOTE] Yes, they should, as long as the risk to the officers and the public is outweighed by the possibility of defusing the situation, and providing the tactic can be implemented as fast as drawing a pistol and firing. However, there are no such tactics that work 100% of the time. Therefore, 100% of the time, when the police shoot a crazy asshole with a knife, there will be opportunities to nitpick or say that the police should have done “something else”, where “something else” is defined as “whatever they did is wrong”. And then we wind up with Hollywood fantasies of the cops as Bruce Lee clones who can disarm maniacs with a flick of their wrists, or **Marley23** ’s silly assertion blaming the cops for getting too close because they parked near the incident rather than, say, a block away. Or the police can retreat when someone attacks, and then we can all condemn them for cowardice. Or if the guy comes at the cop with a knife, it’s the cop’s fault for getting too close. This was a violent, crazy, knife-wielding nutbar. He wanted the police to shoot him, so he came at them with a knife. The police were called to the scene on a report of shoplifting. Then, on fourteen seconds’ notice, they had to come up with a way of “defusing the situation”. It takes longer than fourteen seconds to cure violent schizophrenia AFAICT. And still we get this Monday morning quarterbacking from people who want to poor mouth the police because they brought a gun to a knife fight, instead of bringing reassuring conversation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/83 "2014-08-22T13:36:58Z")
Here’s your answer **Marley**. Let’s call Dr. Phil each time we have a nutcase with a weapon., Dr. Phil can call the dog catcher, who has a big net. The cops can rush in, spray him with silly string and get him totally tangled up. Then they will take him off to the nut ward at the hospital where some bleeding heart liberal will file a writ on his behalf and get him released because, according to you, he’s no risk to the public or the authorities. Yeah, I think your way is better. Actually, we really don’t need cops at all do we? We need Dr. Phil and the dog catcher. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/84 "2014-08-22T13:39:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Here’s your answer **Marley**. > > Let’s call Dr. Phil each time we have a nutcase with a weapon., > > Dr. Phil can call the dog catcher, who has a big net. > > The cops can rush in, spray him with silly string and get him totally tangled up. > > Then they will take him off to the nut ward at the hospital where some bleeding heart liberal will file a writ on his behalf and get him released because, according to you, he’s no risk to the public or the authorities. > > Yeah, I think your way is better. Actually, we really don’t need cops at all do we? We need Dr. Phil and the dog catcher. How about we handle it the way the Australian cops did? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/85 "2014-08-22T13:42:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It wasn’t a strawman. See below - > **brickbacon** said very clearly that the police should be willing to be injured - in this case, stabbed - rather than shoot. So **Loach**'s response is entirely on point. Or it was extreme hyperbole and obviously missing the poster’s point. YMMV. > [@](#): > > However, there are no such tactics that work 100% of the time. Therefore, 100% of the time, when the police shoot a crazy asshole with a knife, there will be opportunities to nitpick or say that the police should have done “something else”, where “something else” is defined as “whatever they did is wrong”. And sometimes, the police will actually have not approached the situation in the best way, and some questions and criticism is legitimate and reasonable. > [@](#): > > This was a violent, crazy, knife-wielding nutbar. He wanted the police to shoot him, so he came at them with a knife. The police were called to the scene on a report of shoplifting. Then, on fourteen seconds’ notice, they had to come up with a way of “defusing the situation”. It takes longer than fourteen seconds to cure violent schizophrenia AFAICT. > > And still we get this Monday morning quarterbacking from people who want to poor mouth the police because they brought a gun to a knife fight, instead of bringing reassuring conversation. As the link with the Australian cops show, there are other approaches that can both minimize risk to the public and minimize the risk of shooting the suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/86 "2014-08-22T13:44:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What has come to be standard procedure is that police fire the instant that they feel the least bit threatened, and they don’t stop firing until the victim stops twitching. They don’t feel compelled to accept the slightest risk or to use anything less than lethal force. A taser or pepper spray might have resulted in the situation not ending in death. Shooting seems to be the first and only option. Until the police start putting some value on the public’s lives, the chasm between police and public will only widen. You have that backwards. The public - specifically, you - need to put more value on the police’s lives. Their lives, which they put on the line daily to protect you, are at least as important as the lives of criminals. If people gave the police the respect due to their position, and obeyed them rather than questioned everything they do, the majority of these problems would magically vanish. And those that don’t could be resolved in court rather than with violence. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/87 "2014-08-22T13:50:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Wait – I’m the PC. I get to decide what my character does! You’re the DM, so you get to decide what NPCs like the knife-guy do, but if I say I went around the car, then I went around the friggin’ car! Ok, you went around the friggin’ car. The NPC gets in the car and drives off. Your move! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/88 "2014-08-22T13:54:04Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Ok, you went around the friggin’ car. > > The NPC gets in the car and drives off. > > Your move! How could he? The keys were in my pocket! I never leave the keys in the car. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/89 "2014-08-22T13:55:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have that backwards. The public - specifically, you - need to put more value on the police’s lives. Their lives, which they put on the line daily to protect you, are at least as important as the lives of criminals. > If people gave the police the respect due to their position, and obeyed them rather than questioned everything they do, the majority of these problems would magically vanish. And those that don’t could be resolved in court rather than with violence. If they shoot to kill the minute they get the least bit concerned about their safety, they can hardly be said to be putting their lives on the line. Mike Brown caught more bullets than were fired by all of the British police in 2013. Somehow the British police deal with criminals without filling the air with lead or hiding behind tanks. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/90 "2014-08-22T14:35:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How could he? The keys were in my pocket! I never leave the keys in the car. Ooooh, he just found out that he can’t drive off, he’s pretty mad. I’m not exactly sure your laptop is supposed to be treated like that, and you’re definitely going to want to replace that seat. He’s getting back out with the knife and is coming around the car, going to keep playing ring around the rosie? ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/91 "2014-08-22T14:37:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … If people gave the police the respect due to their position, and obeyed them rather than questioned everything they do, the majority of these problems would magically vanish. And those that don’t could be resolved in court rather than with violence. if not? would they then point their assault rifles at a mob and “fucking kill” them? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3AFia3Uo0TQ/hqdefault.jpg "Officer Go Fuck Yourself- Rebelutionary\_Z #Ferguson Livestream Clip") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFia3Uo0TQ) it is not right for police to use lethal force when they think that their ego has been slighted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/92 "2014-08-22T14:37:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Ooooh, he just found out that he can’t drive off, he’s pretty mad. I’m not exactly sure your laptop is supposed to be treated like that, and you’re definitely going to want to replace that seat. That sucks, but it’s better than shooting the guy. > [@](#): > > He’s getting back out with the knife and is coming around the car, going to keep playing ring around the rosie? Sure. While calling for backup. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/93 "2014-08-22T14:37:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Here’s your answer **Marley**. > > Let’s call Dr. Phil each time we have a nutcase with a weapon. This thread is amazing. One by one people step up to strenuously defend the police for killing this guy, and when presented with examples of other tactics or reasons to try something else, they retreat behind ludicrous strawmen. Maybe that’s to be expected. It’s very hard to argue that the police have no choice in situations like this when there are both individual examples and entire countries that handle these situations differently and get better outcomes. > [@GusNSpot](#): > > What happens in the UK & AU means nothing because the people, the culture of the people and all kinds of things make the comparison invalid. This is breathtaking. In terms of obvious wrongness, irrelevance, incoherence, desperate handwaving and plain old meaninglessness, this truly stands apart. > [@](#): > > Also, I read someplace that more Bobbies are armed now then ever before. I’m not sure if that’s true. Even if it is, they are still usually able to avoid killing people this way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/94 "2014-08-22T14:38:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s very hard to argue that the police have no choice in situations like this when there are both individual examples and entire countries that handle these situations differently and get better outcomes. I think part of it is that some folks think killing the guy was the best outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/95 "2014-08-22T14:46:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think part of it is that some folks think killing the guy was the best outcome. That’s the sense I get too, which I why I tried to clarify that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/96 "2014-08-22T14:58:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure. While calling for backup. Think you can outrun him while calling for backup? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/97 "2014-08-22T15:07:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Think you can outrun him while calling for backup? You are _thisclose_ to saying the police can’t walk and talk at the same time. We can trust them with guns and life and death decisions, but operating their mouths and feet at the same time is beyond them. Although in this case I don’t see why anyone needed to call for backup since there were three cops and one guy with one knife. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/98 "2014-08-22T15:08:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have that backwards. The public - specifically, you - need to put more value on the police’s lives. Their lives, which they put on the line daily to protect you, are at least as important as the lives of criminals. Not really. Police get killed about as often as everyone else. It is not a particularly dangerous job. And, of course, when police are threatened or killed, society pours far more resources into defending them and catching their killers than any other crime. If I were to make a list of professions who society should care more about protecting, I’d come up with about a dozen before I get to the comparatively safe job of being a policeman. > [@Steophan](#): > > If people gave the police the respect due to their position, and obeyed them rather than questioned everything they do, the majority of these problems would magically vanish. And those that don’t could be resolved in court rather than with violence. This sentiment goes very deep in the Conservative psyche, I think. Indeed, this might be the core sentiment driving a lot of the ideologically-divided debate on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/99 "2014-08-22T15:36:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You are _thisclose_ to saying the police can’t walk and talk at the same time. We can trust them with guns and life and death decisions, but operating their mouths and feet at the same time is beyond them. Although in this case I don’t see why anyone needed to call for backup since there were three cops and one guy with one knife. No, what I’m saying is playing the “I’m going to keep backing up as he’s advancing” game only works if he’s going to passively give up the idea of being up in your face. It becomes harder when you’ve got a belt full of crap, and you’re trying to press the button on your radio, and you’re trying to keep tabs on exactly what the guy behind you is doing. All while running around your car being chased by a dude with a knife. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/100 "2014-08-22T15:36:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If people gave the police the respect due to their position, and obeyed them rather than questioned everything they do, the majority of these problems would magically vanish. And those that don’t could be resolved in court rather than with violence. It’s nothing personal, but I still don’t like [your LA Times piece](http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/). 😉 To elaborate on that a little, since I was asked earlier and didn’t say much, the article comes off as a threatening rant by a guy so desperate for respect and obedience that he’d turned into a minor fascist. It’s rather scary that such a person would become a cop and be trusted with life and death decisions. Of course it also didn’t address any kind of core issue. Yes, sometimes people are jerks with cops for any number of reasons. Almost none of those reasons excuse severe beatings or death. I’m sure cops hate having to absorb that abuse, but it’s part of the job. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > No, what I’m saying is playing the “I’m going to keep backing up as he’s advancing” game only works if he’s going to passively give up the idea of being up in your face. It becomes harder when you’ve got a belt full of crap, and you’re trying to press the button on your radio, and you’re trying to keep tabs on exactly what the guy behind you is doing. I’m having trouble keeping track of your timewasting exercise with **iiandyii** , so I’ll keep it simple: there were three police officers there. There is no logical reason one of them couldn’t have tried to talk this guy down while the others acted as backup. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=6)