# Video of police shooting man in St. Louis (near Ferguson, MO) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090 "2014-08-21T14:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/121 "2014-08-22T18:31:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Do we actually know he was mentally ill, or is that just your assumption? [This has been discussed in just about every single article I’ve seen about the subject.](http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/08/police-kajieme-powell-and-mental-illness.html) He probably did not have an official diagnosis, but if you think stealing two energy drinks and a packet of snacks from a convenience store, throwing them on the ground, then pacing around with a steak knife and yelling “shoot me now, kill me now” at the police is the work of a master criminal in full possession of his faculties, I’m going to go ahead and let you make that argument. > [@](#): > > And frankly if he wasn’t responsible for his actions, he’s probably less predictable and therefore _more_ of a threat. So if he’s a criminal, he deserves to die because he’s a criminal. If he’s mentally ill, he needs to die because he’s an unpredictable threat. I can’t imagine how this line of thinking might lead to unnecessary deaths. > [@](#): > > They need to respond to the actions, not the motivation - that’s for courts and lawyers. And here I thought discovering motive was actually a standard part of police investigations. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/122 "2014-08-22T18:40:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, they should, as long as the risk to the officers and the public is outweighed by the possibility of defusing the situation, and providing the tactic can be implemented as fast as drawing a pistol and firing. I appreciate the answer. I think it clarified whether this is at its heart a debate about empirical facts or not. But I’m not sure why the latter needs to be a condition of success. Showing up to assess the scene while remaining in the car, calling for more backup, getting the right less-than-lethal devices prepared, etc., may well take longer. But at any point they can hop out and shoot the guy if he poses a threat to the public, so I don’t see why the timing is a huge issue. I think part of the issue here is that many U.S. police departments believe that being extremely aggressive toward suspects protects them. (My only direct source for that is an NYPD ride-along, but my impression is that it is a common idea across the country.) They think it leads to better compliance and ability to control the situation. So they probably think it is helpful to show up at the scene and immediately jump out of the car with guns drawn, as they did here, as a way to establish control. But I’m not sure the empirical evidence actually bears out this pop psychological theory. Again, are UK police subject to more injuries when adjusted for the overall amount of violent crime? I doubt it, though I’m prepared to be corrected. > [@Shodan](#): > > However, there are no such tactics that work 100% of the time. Of course. Indeed, shooting the guy doesn’t “work” 100% of the time, in that bystanders might get killed or injured by the police. ISTM the relevant question is: how much greater risk would a different approach have for the cops and public? Do we have any evidence that the other tactics for handling the mentally ill lead to more police or public injuries? Absent such evidence, I think the overconfident refrain that there was nothing that could have been done differently is misguided at best. > [@Shodan](#): > > The police were called to the scene on a report of shoplifting. Then, on fourteen seconds’ notice, they had to come up with a way of “defusing the situation”. It is of course possible that even a better set of tactics would not have been employed in this particular case because the officers didn’t know what they were getting themselves into before it was too late to change course. Even the best-laid plans for dealing with the mentally ill probably won’t get put into effect if a situation goes from normal petty crime to crazy guy with a knife in 10 seconds. But I think it’s fair to wonder whether jumping out of the car immediately after arriving with weapons drawn was the best way to approach a guy they thought was shoplifting. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/123 "2014-08-22T18:47:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It is of course possible that even a better set of tactics would not have been employed in this particular case because the officers didn’t know what they were getting themselves into before it was too late to change course. > > Even the best-laid plans for dealing with the mentally ill probably won’t get put into effect if a situation goes from normal petty crime to crazy guy with a knife in 10 seconds. > > But I think it’s fair to wonder whether jumping out of the car immediately after arriving with weapons drawn was the best way to approach a guy they thought was shoplifting. I’ll follow up with my opinion that, even if it’s determined that the officers behaved incorrectly, it may be that the greater fault resides in broader police training and police culture, whether just in this department or nation-wide. Perhaps our police training and police culture should be much more like those Australian cops linked to earlier, who apprehended the handgun-brandishing deranged guy without any loss of life. ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/124 "2014-08-22T19:04:52Z")
I can’t believe people are actually criticizing the police in this situation lol … jesus christ … they can never win apparently … this guy was acting very aggressively and ignoring orders while yelling ‘shoot me’ and he has a knife … takes the knife out of his pocket … then postures himself on the elevated driveway which gives him leverage to attack … then proceeds to approach the cop from that position with the knife in hand(continuing to ignore orders) … no time for bs at that point … and for those saying he was still far away … nonsense … from 10-15 ft away he can be on top of the cop VERY FAST with a sudden burst … the cop doesn’t have time to be playing games and assessing how to talk this guy down at that point … maybe if the guy had stayed back, they could’ve employed other techniques to talk him down … but the minute he decided to come at the police officer, that was that … the guy wanted to die and he got his wish [knife attack from 10ft and beyond](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xpcrDzy344#t=114) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/125 "2014-08-22T19:16:41Z")
> [@dude77](#): > > I can’t believe people are actually criticizing the police in this situation lol … jesus christ … they can never win apparently … If by “win” you mean get some criticism after they shoot and kill someone, yes, they never win. On the other hand if “win” means they live, unharmed, and someone else dies a violent death - well, that seems to happen fairly regularly in situations like this one. ---
**Author:** ![dude77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@dude77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude77)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/126 "2014-08-22T19:22:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If by “win” you mean get some criticism after they shoot and kill someone, yes, they never win. On the other hand if “win” means they live, unharmed, and someone else dies a violent death - well, that seems to happen fairly regularly in situations like this one. don’t get me wrong, I don’t blindly defend the police … there are plenty of cases where they deserve all the criticism they can get for killing someone … this isn’t one them imo ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/127 "2014-08-22T19:23:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So if he’s a criminal, he deserves to die because he’s a criminal. If he’s mentally ill, he needs to die because he’s an unpredictable threat. I can’t imagine how this line of thinking might lead to unnecessary deaths. Who’s talking about “deserving” here? No-one that. I happen to think, however, that the police and the public deserve to live, and to be protected. Sometimes, the death of people who attack them is an unfortunate side effect. > [@](#): > > And here I thought discovering motive was actually a standard part of police investigations. Not when someone has a fucking knife pointed at them it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/128 "2014-08-22T19:24:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If by “win” you mean get some criticism after they shoot and kill someone, yes, they never win. On the other hand if “win” means they live, unharmed, and someone else dies a violent death - well, that seems to happen fairly regularly in situations like this one. The police are not due any criticism in this instance, based on the video, and anyone who’s criticising them is doing so reflexively, due to anti-police bias, and not due to what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/129 "2014-08-22T19:50:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Who’s talking about “deserving” here? Uh… you. > [@Steophan](#): > > Put simply, no cop is put in a situation where they have to make a life or death decision except when someone else is doing wrong - or appears to be doing so. > [@Steophan](#): > > Well, I’m not actually a cop, but if I were I’d no doubt have written something exactly like that. [While discussing a piece where a cop says “In the overwhelming majority of cases it is not the cops, but the people they stop, who can prevent detentions from turning into tragedies.”] > [@](#): > > Normal people don’t scream abuse at people, whether they are shop assistants, call centre workers, or policemen. To do so is antisocial, and possibly criminal, behaviour, and no-one should have to tolerate it. > > Fortunately, policemen are in an unique position to do something about it, by arresting the person abusing them, and they should do so on every occasion. > [@Steophan](#): > > I happen to think, however, that the police and the public deserve to live, and to be protected. Strawmen need a lot of police protection, apparently. > [@](#): > > Not when someone has a fucking knife pointed at them it isn’t. Exactly - and this guy was just two or three feet from them and charged at them with a knife raised! Well, six or seven feet. Walking. With the knife by his side. Would you believe the knife was _pointed_ at them? > [@Steophan](#): > > The police are not due any criticism in this instance, based on the video, and anyone who’s criticising them is doing so reflexively, due to anti-police bias, and not due to what actually happened. Another one for the “this is what happened because I say so” pile. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/130 "2014-08-22T20:36:35Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I can’t get past why Tasers weren’t the first line of defense here. Truly puzzling. > > How old are you? Tell me why you want to know that. I have posted my age many times, even recently in many threads on the SDMB. I am curious what you will do with this information. I will be 71 in a few days. Go for it. I have my green metal underpants on. ( I bet you know where that comes from also… ) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/131 "2014-08-22T20:44:30Z")
Nothing even resembling suggesting anyone deserves to die there, **Marley**. And then you claim I’m strawmanning the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/132 "2014-08-22T20:52:52Z")
The Portland, OR Police Department has the following [policy](http://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/29867?): > [@](#): > > The goal shall be to de-escalate situations safely for all individuals involved when reasonable, practical, and consistent with established safety priorities and to attempt to resolve such incidents in as constructive and humane a manner as possible. Members are expected to recognize behavior that is characteristic of mental illness or crisis and particularly that which is potentially destructive and/or dangerous, so as to respond in ways that promote safety. > > Responding to situations involving individuals who members reasonably believe to be affected by mental illness or in crisis carries the potential for violence; requires a member to make difficult judgments about the mental state and intent of the individual; and necessitates the use of special police skills, techniques, and abilities to effectively and appropriately resolve the situation, while avoiding unnecessary violence and potential civil liability. > > [. . .] > > Members will assess risk to themselves, the involved person, and others in determining a course of action. Many persons affected by mental illness or in crisis are not dangerous and some may only present dangerous behavior under certain circumstances or conditions. > > [. . .] > > When responding to persons exhibiting abnormal behavior or symptoms of mental illness or mental health crisis, members should consider the following actions to manage the situation for the safety of all at the scene: > 4.1.1. Evaluate the nature of the situation and necessity for police intervention or other referral. > 4.1.2. If police intervention is necessary, evaluate if contact should be made by phone or in person. > 4.1.3. If police intervention is necessary, evaluate the need to utilize additional cover officers and the ability to notify and/or utilize a supervisor. > 4.1.4. Evaluate the need for assistance from individuals with specialized training in dealing with mental illness or crisis situations (e.g., Enhanced Crisis Intervention Training (ECIT) officers, community crisis mental health personnel, Crisis Negotiator). The Bureau of Emergency Communications (BOEC) will dispatch ECIT members, when available, to mental health crisis calls. A mental health crisis call is a call with a mental health component AND one or more of the following circumstances: > 4.1.4.1. The subject is violent, > 4.1.4.2. The subject has a weapon > > [. . .] > > 4.1.5. If custody is necessary, develop and communicate a tactical plan taking advantage of the most effective options that may safely resolve the incident. That strikes me as perfectly sensible. In particular, the expectation that officers will assess a situation and recognize behavior that is characteristic of mental illness before going in with guns blazing; the recognition that some people in mental health crisis will be violent only in response to police action, so they should be careful not to escalate a situation unnecessarily; and the necessity of formulating and communicating a tactical plan to resolve the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/133 "2014-08-22T21:07:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nothing even resembling suggesting anyone deserves to die there, **Marley**. Really, how would you put it? You said police never take a life unless someone is doing something wrong (or _appears to be_ doing something wrong - what a hopelessly vague phrase); you strongly endorsed the view that “in the overwhelming majority of cases” civilians are the reason stops become violent or tragic; you said that yelling at cops is antisocial and possibly criminal and that the police should always arrest people who yell at them. What do you believe is a sensible description of this view? Your take seems to be that this is 100% Powell’s fault even though he was evidently not in control of his actions - a fact you’ve said is simultaneously irrelevant to the police and a grave threat to them. Is that better? > [@](#): > > And then you claim I’m strawmanning the argument. It can’t be described another way. You’re not alone, but you’ve tossed out plenty of straw. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/134 "2014-08-22T22:05:52Z")
Seems obvious to me that the guy only stole a few dollars worth of shit in order to get the cops there in the first place. This is clearly suicide by cop and he got his wish. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/135 "2014-08-22T22:19:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What do you believe is a sensible description of this view? That their own death is a tragic consequence of their actions. They no more deserve to die than a smoker deserves lung cancer. You know, the actual, literal meaning of my words. You’ve repeatedly quoted them, so I assume you’ve read them. But to completely clarify, someone who attacks a police officer (or anyone else, for that matter) doesn’t deserve to die. But they don’t deserve to have their safety prioritised over that of the person they are attacking, which is what people in this thread are calling for. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/136 "2014-08-22T22:38:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That their own death is a tragic consequence of their actions. They no more deserve to die than a smoker deserves lung cancer. That’s a better way of putting it - even though I’m not sure it tracks with the phrasing you’ve used. But in any case I still think there’s a problem with the way you’re framing this situation. A criminal with a weapon is dangerous but presumably in control of his actions. If someone who isn’t legally or morally responsible for his actions is even worse, what chance is there that the situation will be resolved without violence? It seems like this justifies the use of lethal force in every situation. > [@](#): > > But they don’t deserve to have their safety prioritised over that of the person they are attacking, which is what people in this thread are calling for. As a reminder, _one_ post ago you (somewhat hilariously) complained about people saying you were using strawman arguments. Nobody is calling for this. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/137 "2014-08-22T22:46:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It seems like this justifies the use of lethal force in every situation. No, just those where people are attacking or threatening to attack the police. > [@](#): > > Nobody is calling for this. I’ve read many posts in this thread and the others about Ferguson where it’s been said that the police should accept a certain level of injury as part of their job, if it means subduing rather than killing someone. I don’t accept that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/138 "2014-08-23T00:12:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve read many posts in this thread and the others about Ferguson where it’s been said that the police should accept a certain level of injury as part of their job, if it means subduing rather than killing someone. I don’t accept that. As a hypothetical: Suppose there are just two policies for violent confrontations: Policy A leads to: several hospitalised police officers per year and 20 dead violent aggressors Policy B leads to: no hospitalised police officers per year and 200 dead violent aggressors You don’t think there’s any real choice to be made? What if Policy B has been misunderstood, instead we have: Policy B leads to: no immediately hospitalised police officers and 200 dead violent aggressors and a loss of community faith in the justice system leading to a sense of alienation and oppression which in turn leads to a 0.5% increase in the level of violence, hospitalisations and death amongst the general population (police officers included) What then? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/139 "2014-08-23T01:04:21Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > As a hypothetical: > > Suppose there are just two policies for violent confrontations: > > Policy A leads to: several hospitalised police officers per year and 20 dead violent aggressors > Policy B leads to: no hospitalised police officers per year and 200 dead violent aggressors > > You don’t think there’s any real choice to be made? With this simple, unrealistic, unqualified choice? No, I don 't. Even in your Utopia where cops take risks that lead to injuries that require hospitalization, but those risks NEVER lead to their deaths, I have no trouble choosing B. That doesn’t mean it’s a pleasing outcome. But the violent aggressor bears the responsibility for his actions. Note: Your hypothetical offers only two choices, and I assume that the cops are not committing any crimes in the commission of their duties. You really don’t state a lot of details, so I’m responding based on what you offered. > [@](#): > > What if Policy B has been misunderstood, instead we have: > > Policy B leads to: no immediately hospitalised police officers and 200 dead violent aggressors and a loss of community faith in the justice system leading to a sense of alienation and oppression which in turn leads to a 0.5% increase in the level of violence, hospitalisations and death amongst the general population (police officers included) > > What then? Jesus. And what if one of the hospitalized police officers is so frightened by his hospital stay he doesn’t go to medical school and the cure for cancer is lost? Millions die who would have lived! What about that, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/140 "2014-08-23T01:35:58Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Tell me why you want to know that. > > I have posted my age many times, even recently in many threads on the SDMB. > > I am curious what you will do with this information. > > I will be 71 in a few days. > > Go for it. I have my green metal underpants on. ( I bet you know where that comes from also… ) 😛 Curiousity, nothing more. What _could_ I “do” with the info? Plot your demise? :eek: I dont know anything about green underpants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=8)