# Video of police shooting man in St. Louis (near Ferguson, MO) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090 "2014-08-21T14:13:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/161 "2014-08-23T20:54:29Z")
> [@camille](#): > > But they did have more than “a few seconds notice”. It wasn’t called in as a “routine shoplifting”. They’d been told the guy was behaving erratically and had a knife before they arrived. Another big clue it wasn’t a “routine shoplifting” was that the guy didn’t take the stuff and run. He was obviously just waiting for the police to show up. I sit corrected, but that indicates he is a danger to the public as well. > [@](#): > > Should it be that easy and predictable to engineer a police-assisted suicide? Again - if you are crazy enough to attack police to get them to shoot you, then you are crazy enough to attack someone else to get the police to shoot you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/162 "2014-08-23T21:12:29Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Damn, I was all ready to think everyone bashing the cops in the thread were a bunch of cop hating liberal types or whatever it’s called now; but then I saw the video. That video does not make the police look very well trained. But what if the training was very good but being of the minority of cops that are just asshat bullies we now denounce any and all cops who do not act as the cops do in the UK & AU? What about all the time ( which are seldom reported ) that the US cops did just as good as the cherry picked examples of UK & AU cops? What makes it possible that there is no asshat cops in the UK and AU? What about the cops in Iceland? Another question. In the US, if it was policy to not shoot but to negotiate at any questionable conflict, would it take before the bad guys figured out that they could draw their concealed firearm & fire from 21 feet or whatever distance the police were not allowed to fire from and that they must always present a tazer first before drawing their guns? :rolleyes: Bad guys are not that smart or would not deliberately try to set up such a safe way to remove the cops sent to stop their misdeeds? :rolleyes: Talk about straw man and the opportunity to have threads like this makes it almost irresistible to force the police to operate in just that manner. :smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/163 "2014-08-23T21:16:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again - if you are crazy enough to attack police to get them to shoot you, then you are crazy enough to attack someone else to get the police to shoot you. This guy didn’t attack police, he stepped towards them. And he didn’t even step towards anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/164 "2014-08-23T21:30:33Z")
> [@camille](#): > > But they did have more than “a few seconds notice”. It wasn’t called in as a “routine shoplifting”. They’d been told the guy was behaving erratically and had a knife before they arrived. Another big clue it wasn’t a “routine shoplifting” was that the guy didn’t take the stuff and run. He was obviously just waiting for the police to show up. > > Should it be that easy and predictable to engineer a police-assisted suicide? You want the police to take as accurate the person who is calling 911 to be giving true & accurate information to the point that they do not need to hurry, wait for an ambulance so they can get the crazy ( which they know from the 911 caller that does not leave a name much of the time. ) or to react to an armed man with talk and to make that determination while on the drive to the location? That should be their training? Do not get out of the car ready for thew worst but get out expecting to see what the 911 caller said was accurate? That is what they were hired to do in your opinion or it should be? Could this or any occurrence that has or will be incurred be handled better? Sure. No argument. But every one? Who decides, you a week later or the man that see’s his wife killed because the cops tried to talk and passed up several chances to shoot the perp? Oh, we are only talking about this one incident. But we are going to make a mandatory change and requirement to modify all training across the nation to reflect this? Were these cops in this incident to quick on the trigger? Maybe, but not so much as to be called down for it IMO. :p:p ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/165 "2014-08-23T21:37:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This guy didn’t attack police, he stepped towards them. And he didn’t even step towards anyone else. After being told not to do that " he stepped towards them." **With a knife in his hand.** He made it clear by the way he did it, all that maneuvering before stepping towards the officer that he was not stepping towards them in any innocent way. If he was stepping towards me after that kind of maneuvering I would not call out the police to not worry, it was an innocent move & he means me no harm. But the nay sayer’s in the thread would? Okayyyyyyyyyyy :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/166 "2014-08-23T21:58:16Z")
I’m not usually a fan of the police in these circumstances, but when there is a guy with a drawn knife walking towards you and refusing to stop, a police officer or any other free person should have the right to kill him. I can’t believe that some of these comments would suggest that an officer (or a citizen) should have to suffer a stab wound because it is better than a death on the other side. That might objectively be true, but the best way to keep from dying: don’t walk towards anyone with a knife drawn. Should you have to be in the hospital and recover from a stab wound to save the life of some other idiot who attacked you? And that is assuming the knife isn’t planted straight into your heart. This shoot was legit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/167 "2014-08-23T22:03:23Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If he was stepping towards me after that kind of maneuvering I would not call out the police to not worry, it was an innocent move & he means me no harm. But the nay sayer’s in the thread would? Okayyyyyyyyyyy :rolleyes: I’m not saying that, nor is anyone else. I’m saying that there were other options besides shooting the man. We know this is the case because police departments in other countries have handled armed and deranged men, including men who lunged towards police with a blade in hand, without shooting them or putting anyone at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/168 "2014-08-23T22:05:37Z")
At least they handcuffed the perp after the threat was minimalized. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/169 "2014-08-23T22:16:53Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > …the bad guys figured out that they could draw their concealed firearm & fire from 21 feet or whatever distance the police were not allowed to fire from and that they must always present a tazer first before drawing their guns? :rolleyes: Guns at 21 feet are realistically lethal. Knives at 10 feet (failing circus throwing uber skills) not so much. The questions raised by the “nay-sayers” as you call them, are not if the antagonist could potentially present a lethal danger to the police or to the public, but whether the police response was as minima ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/170 "2014-08-23T22:36:25Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > …the bad guys figured out that they could draw their concealed firearm & fire from 21 feet or whatever distance the police were not allowed to fire from and that they must always present a tazer first before drawing their guns? :rolleyes: Guns at 21 feet are realistically lethal (raised gun at 21 feet, blow their fucking heads off I won’t complain). Knives at 10 feet (failing circus throwing über skills) not so much. The questions raised by the “nay-sayers” (as you call them), are not if the antagonist could potentially present a lethal danger to the police or to the public (clearly the potential was there), but whether the police response was as minimal as it could have been. I say no. Many reasons have already been discussed above _ad nauseum_. Elsewhere, you know that movie trope, the one where the hero has downed the bad guy and turns his attention to whatever he feels is so pressing at that moment, and then the bad guy reappears to start the action all over again? And we say to ouselves, if that was me I would have made sure that that fucker was dead first time around. But a) that’s movies bad guys who, as we all know, are indestructible until melted in molten metal b) that’s when we need to put our attention elsewhere c) we don’t have a well-trained armed colleague pointing a loaded gun at him If you explained it to me until Christmas, I would never get why a minimum of nine shots were fired, at least two of which came after the bad guy was clearly down and disabled. Scream at me how naive I am if you want, but short of citing a number of incidents where more than one cop have come to harm from a single perp already shot to bits and prostrate I’m going to believe my naivety is well-founded. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/171 "2014-08-23T22:38:34Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > Guns at 21 feet are realistically lethal. Knives at 10 feet (failing circus throwing uber skills) not so much. > > The questions raised by the “nay-sayers” as you call them, are not if the antagonist could potentially present a lethal danger to the police or to the public, but whether the police response was as minima A person can cross ten feet in a very short space of time, someone presenting a knife to me in an aggressive manner at that distance (and further back) is an immediate lethal threat. Not a great video but this knife-wielding man crossed the distance towards armed police pretty damn quickly and he was significently further back than ten feet: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=346lahp5c0A) ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/172 "2014-08-23T22:44:37Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > At least they handcuffed the perp after the threat was minimalized. Seriously tho, why did they handcuff a dead body? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/173 "2014-08-23T22:50:41Z")
[quote=“Disposable Hero, post:171, topic:696090”] A person can cross ten feet in a very short space of time, someone presenting a knife to me in an aggressive manner at that distance (and further back) is an immediate lethal threat. Not a great video but this knife-wielding man crossed the distance towards armed police pretty damn quickly and he was significently further back than ten feet: [/QUOTE] “Pretty damn quick” maybe, but bullets pass pretty damn instaneously. Still, as already argued a number of times, perhaps the immediate confrontation and reluctance to back off contibuted to the “suicide by cop” (note in the video you linked to – the police there maintained a distance, and did not shoot until danger was very imminent (even though it was known that the perp had already gruesomely murdered someone)). Interesting to note that the perp survived that shooting and went on to be tried and convicted of the murder. Stupid British Police should have finished the job properly, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/174 "2014-08-23T22:54:00Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > Guns at 21 feet are realistically lethal. Knives at 10 feet (failing circus throwing uber skills) not so much. How long do you think it takes someone to move ten feet, even from a standing start? Bear in mind that, with the length of the knife, an arm extended, and leaning forward you come close to halving the distance he’d need to move, so let’s say 6 feet. Watch the video again, he falls literally at the closest cop’s feet. If they’d waited a second longer, he would have been stabbed. Could you do anything to ensure your safety in that situation, other than shooting? Unless you’re Bruce Lee, no. Probably the most frustrating thing about threads like this is people who don’t think knives are dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/175 "2014-08-23T22:56:24Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Seriously tho, why did they handcuff a dead body? Seriously? Just in case he’s not dead, and still has access to his knife. I’d be amazed if it wasn’t procedure to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/176 "2014-08-23T22:59:12Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > But what if the training was very good but being of the minority of cops that are just asshat bullies we now denounce any and all cops who do not act as the cops do in the UK & AU? What about all the time ( which are seldom reported ) that the US cops did just as good as the cherry picked examples of UK & AU cops? > > What makes it possible that there is no asshat cops in the UK and AU? What about the cops in Iceland? > > Another question. In the US, if it was policy to not shoot but to negotiate at any questionable conflict, would it take before the bad guys figured out that they could draw their concealed firearm & fire from 21 feet or whatever distance the police were not allowed to fire from and that they must always present a tazer first before drawing their guns? :rolleyes: > > Bad guys are not that smart or would not deliberately try to set up such a safe way to remove the cops sent to stop their misdeeds? :rolleyes: > > Talk about straw man and the opportunity to have threads like this makes it almost irresistible to force the police to operate in just that manner. :smack::smack: I think you are reading many things into my statement; I myself would not condemn the cops in this situation - that is just not what I think or feel about the situation. My thought upon seeing the video is exactly what I said, the video does not look like something that when shown to most people would look like a well - trained police force. It looks like cops on a hair trigger overreacting to a situation, then, for some reason, handcuffing a dead person they just shot several times at close range. That is not to say I pass judgement on the police, it is saying that they were videotaped doing something that would make them look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/177 "2014-08-23T23:01:16Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > “Pretty damn quick” maybe, but bullets pass pretty damn instaneously. Quote from this link: “Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the shootout, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents.” > **[1986 FBI Miami shootout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout)** > > The 1986 FBI Miami shootout occurred on April 11, 1986, in Miami-Dade County, Florida, U.S. (the specific area was incorporated as Pinecrest in 1996), when a small group of field agents for the FBI attempted to apprehend William Russell Matix and Michael Lee Platt, who were suspected of committing a series of violent crimes in and around the Miami metropolitan area. > Although they had partially surrounded the suspects after maneuvering them off a local road, the agents involved quickly found thei... Bullets aren’t necessarily instantly effective. The officer in the above link was very lucky that her attacker went down when he did. > [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > Still, as already argued a number of times, perhaps the immediate confrontation and reluctance to back off contibuted to the “suicide by cop” (note in the video you linked to – the police there maintained a distance, and did not shoot until danger was very imminent (even though it was known that the perp had already gruesomely murdered someone)). I wasn’t talking about the initial video, I was talking about your frankly ludicrous assertion that someone with a knife at a distance of ten feet isn’t a lethal threat. > [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](#): > > Interesting to note that the perp survived that shooting and went on to be tried and convicted of the murder. Stupid British Police should have finished the job properly, eh? That says rather more about you than it does about me. Eh? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/178 "2014-08-23T23:06:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Seriously? Just in case he’s not dead, and still has access to his knife. I’d be amazed if it wasn’t procedure to do so. Well i assume the knife would be immediately taken from him as soon as he is down and no longer resisting (before being cuffed). And why not just check the pulse of the limp body laying there, why handcuff him? It may be procedure, im not disputing that but the reasons you give seem shaky. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/179 "2014-08-23T23:10:28Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Bullets aren’t necessarily instantly effective. The officer in the above link was very lucky that her attacker went down when he did. Outside edit window: Actually I’m not sure of the gender of the officer who was getting out of the car, my recollection was that it was a female officer who shot him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090/180 "2014-08-23T23:15:26Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Quote from this link: > > “Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the shootout, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents.” > > [1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout) It doesn’t surprise me that an injured person could pull a trigger, that’s not what this case is about, is it? > [@](#): > > That says rather more about you than it does about me. Eh? Perhaps my ironic tone wasn’t carried by the medium. My bad. So shoot me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-of-police-shooting-man-in-st-louis-near-ferguson-mo/696090.md?page=10)