No, it isn’t. Not when the video shows that, in the blink of an eye, the guy could have been nose to nose with the cop, sticking that knife in his heart.
This is why eyewitness testimony sucks, people have adrenaline up to their eyeballs, everything happens in 10 seconds, you don’t get replay to check out your story. Then someone starts getting on your ass because the guy was 7 feet away instead of 3 feet away, and how could you not know the difference? Gee Whiz, I just shot and killed a guy because he was coming at me with a knife in his hand, sorry I didn’t have my laser rangefinder accessory activated.
I can see both sides of this one. Police have to react in a split second so there really is no time for carefully deliberate on their part. I don’t expect them to wait until they are cut by a knife, or hit by a bat either. I’d hate to be in that position and have so little time to reflect on the situation before acting as I bet I would get it wrong most of the time.
Yes, that’s what the video established. You may now proceed to say ‘OK, the police got a bunch of obvious facts wrong, but they don’t matter anyway.’ That way we won’t have to argue about why the police got those facts wrong or the significance of the errors.
No, neither are important, and the suggestion is ridiculous.
If they get all the significant details as right without video as they do with video, pretty damn accurate.
Again - the police described the incident as one where some crazy shit head came at the police with a knife, shouting “Shoot me!” and refusing to stop, surrender or otherwise cease to be a deadly danger to the public. The police then shot him before he could hurt anyone.
Guess what - that is exactly what the video shows. Describing him as being 2-3 feet away when he was shot instead of 2-3 feet away when he fell, or saying he held the knife with which he was going to stab them high instead of holding the knife with which he was going to stab them low, is irrelevant.
If you are going to try to use this to cast doubt on the credibility of the Missouri police in Ferguson, it ain’t gonna work, not even a little bit. The St Louis police descibed the relevant circumstances of their shooting to explain why the officers felt the shooting was justified. And they had video to back them up. If the Ferguson police story could be shown to match the circumstances as closely as that, I for one would be happy to tell the protesters in Ferguson to go shove their protest signs up their asses.
It can’t be shown, unfortunately, at least with the evidence to date. And nothing helps with some people - no matter what, there will be some dunce saying “Well, Wilson only had one eye socket fractured - he should have tried to Taser him. Then if that didn’t work, fire a couple of warning shots, and if that didn’t work, shoot him in the shoulder like they did on Gunsmoke.”
In addition to the getting-easy-facts-wrong (that just-so-happen to be described, incorrectly, in a more favorable way for the shooting), the cops seemed to make no extra effort to talk this guy down. No backing away to put space in between. It was either ‘mentally-ill guy must obey the orders immediately’ from officers who had already drawn and aimed their guns, or he dies. It certainly appeared like the officers arrived with the expectation that they would shoot this guy, drew their guns immediately upon arriving, and when the mentally ill man stepped towards them instead of immediately obeying instructions, they shot him nine times – including a few times once he was already on the ground.
Looking at this in the context of law-enforcement and race, it seems like another coin in the big, big jar full of actions that show many cops (of any race) sometimes just act differently towards black people. They might be just a little more likely to be nervous, perhaps a little more likely to draw their gun, a little more likely to twitch, a little more likely to pull the trigger if the suspect is black. And because many black people recognize this, an individual black person might be a little more likely to be nervous when around police, and a little more likely to respond in a nervous manner, and a little more likely to say something the cop doesn’t like, or that the cop interprets improperly, and a little more likely to tense up when grabbed.
No, the details are important, and the suggestion is reasonable.
It seems likely that this deranged guy had a part for the police to play when they arrived. And the police played that part perfectly. I think there was probably a way for the police to play it, without putting themselves at risk, that didn’t end with the guy dead.
I brought it up because it seemed like an interesting thing to discuss, regardless of the Ferguson shooting. I have no reason to believe the proximity is anything but a coincidence – further, I think such behavior is (unfortunately) pretty common around the country.
The shooting was justified whether he was was seven feet away or 2-3, so that detail is unimportant. The shooting was justified whether he held the knife high or low, so that detail is unimportant. The shooting was justified whether he was coming at the police with a knife at a run or at a fast walk, so that detail is unimportant.
As usual, the police put their lives on the line to protect the public, and in return get badmouthed because they can’t wave a magic wand and cure every violent lunatic in St Louis on five minutes notice.
Since you think there is a way of handing it so no one gets hurt. Good - let’s hear it.
You are a police officer. You are called to the scene of a reported shoplifter. When you arrive, he is pacing up and down holding a knife. As soon as you arrive, he advances on you with the knife yelling “Shoot me!”
He does not respond to orders to drop the knife or to stop advancing. From the video, you have about ten seconds to decide. If you decide wrong, you, your partner, or another bystander could be injured or killed.
So let’s hear what they should have done to make this whole mess go away. And after you do, you better report every single detail perfectly or everyone will know you are a liar.
And if it’s justified either way, then why did the chief get it so wrong? Why couldn’t he have just taken a few extra minutes and make sure his statements matched the video? Precision should be expected when we’re talking about shootings.
Asking questions isn’t badmouthing. Police shootings should be closely evaluated, and questions should be asked – and when the police get the details wrong, they should be challenged on it. There are police departments in other countries that handle these situations without shooting the suspect, and handle them safely. The US doesn’t have some sort of monopoly on mentally ill folks.
Ten seconds can be a long time in a crisis. Probably enough time to back away, and to put the police car between me and the knife-wielder.
Perhaps police training says you can’t ever back away, and you can’t ever try to put the cruiser in between you and the suspect. If so, then I guess my idea wouldn’t work.
A “less confrontational approach”? How polite do you think the police need to be when some one is coming at them with a knife yelling “Shoot me!”, and what indication do you have that it will work against a dangerous looney?
“Gee, Mr. Paranoid Psychotic, could you kindly stop coming towards me with that knife, pretty please with cream and sugar? And could you hold it there and not stab my partner whilst I get my Taser and line it up on you. Hold still now!”
Then I suppose they should shoot the knife out of his hand and use the Vulcan Neck Pinch to put him into a nice nap, then whisk him off to the station for a cookie and a reassuring hug.
I would like to raise a couple of points regarding this. When the Chief comes out and says that the difference between the officers and crazy is x distance, it isn’t first hand. It is probably based on the shooting officer’s statement. In the heat of the moment, I find it not surprising that the officer’s perceptions of the incident and the actual reality vary. Who knows why the Chief or spokesman were not more on point with their comments. As for why they didn’t place distance between themselves and this guy, there may simply have been civilians in the near vicinity; you can’t let the guy hurt someone else either.
Try this experiment. Take a pencil, get 8-10 feet away from someone and see how long you take to get in knife range even from a standing start. I believe even the Mythbusters found that from 12’ or closer, a knife doesn’t have an advantage over gun, but at that distance, closing to stabbing range is very fast.
These things happen extremely quickly. Oftentimes, you receive a vague call about a disturbed individual and that’s it. You get there and a situation can disintegrate in literally ten seconds.
Many departments offer ride-alongs and I highly recommend them. Until you have seen just how incredibly fast a minor altercation between two families can become damned near a riot, it is hard to understand.
Yes, I think having one person talk to him instead of having three guys yell at him with their weapons drawn might’ve helped. Since you didn’t address the other two ideas I brought up, I’ll take that as confirmation that you think they might’ve helped.
Now we’re getting closer to the truth. The police arrived in a dangerous situation, didn’t handle it right, and panicked. That’s why at least one of them exaggerated the situation: the guy was six or seven feet away, walking, and didn’t have the knife raised, but they remembered him running, being within arm’s reach and prepared to stab them. They were frightened. That’s entirely understandable. The problem is that they either weren’t given the tools to respond appropriately or they let their panic override their training. If they had handled it better, maybe the man would still be dead. Maybe not. In that case at least most people would say you can see the police did everything they could. Instead, they arrived and almost immediately someone was dead.
If only someone had recorded the whole thing on their phone.
I’m afraid I disagree with you here. That’s okay. We can both still be good people and disagree.
So, probably about 10 feet or a little more, then.
So why wouldn’t the Chief try and get it right?
Sometimes it’s okay to ask questions. Sometimes questions are appropriate. It seems like questions should be asked after the police shoot a mentally ill guy with a knife.
No, I was already on the other side of the police cruiser.
I will agree that over-militarization of the Police is a problem. It is also clear that THIS particular department does not train for de-escalation. However, everyone is an expert at what should have been done when it is SO EASY to do so. We have all day to discuss and argue this.