# Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858 "2005-04-24T14:30:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/141 "2005-04-25T15:18:34Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Is your finger stuck in your ass again Patriot? Let me check and I’ll get back to you. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/142 "2005-04-25T15:20:22Z")
> [@kka](#): > > The school isn’t allowed to touch her, so they are in a no-win situation. By calling the police, they had a third party come in - which I see as one of the only viable options. > > Why didn’t the mother or fathe rget to the school more quickly? That’s what I’d like to know, why the mom couldn’t come in. What sort of job does she have that she’ll be fired for going to get her out-of-control child? What if she’d been injured or was sick? Are there really employers out there who’ll fire people for having to leave early in an emergency involving their child? I just think the argument of “She might have been fired!” is sort of a strawman, but that’s just my opinion. Also, they talked about this on the “Today Show” this morning and had the county school superintendent and the mom’s lawyer on. The superintendent said that when they called the mom, she said she couldn’t come right away, and reminded the principal (or whoever called) that they weren’t allowed to touch her child at all. What’s happened before that she had to _remind them_ not to touch the girl? I’d love to know what’s in this kid’s record. Obviously, they can’t release it for privacy reasons, but as others have said, this must have happened before. JFTR, I teach preschool, and I recognize this behavior all too well, even down to the look on the little girl’s face as they’re putting the cuffs on - this is a child who has never, ever been told, “No” or “You can’t…” This kid is appalled that someone has dared to cross her and put her in her place. Yes, she’s spoiled, but it isn’t all her fault. I blame the mom. When this first broke, all I saw was the video clip of them cuffing her, and a VO that she’d been “acting up.” My first knee-jerk reaction was, “Holy shit, are they nuts, cuffing a little kid?” After I saw more, and saw the rampage she went on, I don’t blame the school one bit for calling the cops. They can’t touch her, she’s disturbing the rest of the class, she might have hurt someone else or herself - she was throwing punches at the one woman (assistant principal?) and jumping on the table. What then? The mom would be suing them for letting her child hurt herself. As far as the “Indigo Child,” that’s a new one to me. It sounds a little like the one called [The Spirited Child](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060923288/102-6556813-3767346?v=glance). I had a boy in my class last year (older 4s and younger 5s) whose parents said their son was a “Spirited Child.” They even gave us a copy of the book to read. He acted up in a way very much like this girl on a daily basis. He had no respect for the teachers or other adults, he wouldn’t sit still for anything, hit other kids, and took a special delight in destroying artwork and Lego creations of other kids. We were not supposed to give him time-outs or ever tell him he’d done something wrong, we were just supposed to distract him with another activity (this was coming from the parents). It just didn’t work, and they ended up pulling him out after we said we had to give him time-outs and make sure he knew when he’d done something wrong. I call bullshit on all this “indigo child” and “spirited child” crap. These kids need a swat to the butt every now and then, and need rules. They need to be told “No” and know their limits. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/143 "2005-04-25T15:21:28Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > You’re the fucking idiot **Patriot X** - it was a joke dumbass. Christ – ya :wally So, you think it was a whoosh when in fact it was a double whoosh, or perhaps you are being sarcastic too and I have been triple whooshed? > [@Airman Doors](#): > > There is that possibility, but the odds are that the mother (and father, where is he in all this?) was too permissive and lost control, and is now getting slapped around by her child. My little sister worked in the worst elementary school in DC and at least from what she saw the worst behavior problems came not from the children who were spoiled, nor from the ones who were ignored, but from the ones who were over-punished, beaten even. The results she would describe sound just like this kid. Not saying this is the case, just that it is at least as likely as a lack of discipline. > [@Eve](#): > > You mean you can actually be diagnosed with a Mood Indigo Disorder? Yeah, and though they may act up like a full grown woman, they will still break like a little girl. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/144 "2005-04-25T15:22:33Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Let me check and I’ll get back to you. No - don’t get back with me ---- just check - ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/145 "2005-04-25T15:23:28Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Let me check and I’ll get back to you. No, that’s just a hole in the ground. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/146 "2005-04-25T15:24:49Z")
> [@flight](#): > > So, you think it was a whoosh when in fact it was a double whoosh…? So kind of you to notice. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/147 "2005-04-25T15:25:48Z")
> [@flight](#): > > My little sister worked in the worst elementary school in DC and at least from what she saw the worst behavior problems came not from the children who were spoiled, nor from the ones who were ignored, but from the ones who were over-punished, beaten even. The results she would describe sound just like this kid. Not saying this is the case, just that it is at least as likely as a lack of discipline. I understand that. I am speaking from the perspective of a responsible parent. Needless to say, beating your child senseless shows a decided lack of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/148 "2005-04-25T15:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I fail to see any difference between saying you “would” hurt a five year old or that you would “want” to. Then you’re more of an idiot than I thought. And upbraid all you want, liar. Just don’t flatter yourself into thinking that your pathetic attempts to demonize me actually mean anything. OMG! A 5 year old girl! Putting her in passive restraints for 5 minutes will scar her for life! Give me a fucking break. Her problems have nothing to do with the cops and their cold, steely handcuffs. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/149 "2005-04-25T15:32:02Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Give me a fucking break. Her problems have nothing to do with the cops and their cold, steely handcuffs. No, according to you her problem is that she’s a “vile little idiot.” How very insightful. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/150 "2005-04-25T15:34:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Five year olds do _not_ know “right from wrong.” They know that different behaviors will bring different results but they don’t actually have a developed moral system. They are purely self-centered and result driven. They also quite often simply lack any cognitive tools or abilities to control their own emotions. Knowing that a behavior will bring negative consequences is not the same thing as knowing that it’s"wrong." Bullshit, they **do** know right from wrong. Five-year-olds are the epitome of knowing what’s right and wrong and what’s fair - they’re just figuring out the world and how it works, and they know this type of behavior is “wrong.” They damn well know that running around the room, disturbing other kids, ripping bulletin boards down, breaking things that belong to other people is all wrong. As I said in my previous post, I teach preschool, older 4s and younger 5s. It’s a private school, all the familes are quite well-off, and some of the kids are spoiled and indulged beyond belief. I recognize this behavior all too well. This kid has never been told “No” or that she’s not allowed to do something and she’s probably had every whim indulged since she was born. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/151 "2005-04-25T15:36:22Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > If she knows that Mommy is a mean bitch and she knows what’s coming she learns both discipline to avoid punishment and subservience. As she gets older she gets weaned off the punishment, but the memory is always there. I used to think this way. Had to have a few long sit-downs with several child psychologists convincing me I was wrong. Of course, we were already realizing that punishment had **absolutely** no effect on the behaviours. This assumes that the mother is dealing with a child with a true disorder. > [@Airman Doors](#): > > It wouldn’t work now. It’s too late. > [@Airman Doors](#): > > I agree. It’s too late for her. The only discipline she will get if she doesn’t get it together in the next 13 years will be from a prison guard. Sad. Not necessarily true. It will take commitment from the mother (and father, if he is around). First part is admitting your child has a problem. Second part is committing to fix it. It’s not something that can be done quickly, but it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/152 "2005-04-25T15:37:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Five year olds do _not_ know “right from wrong.” They know that different behaviors will bring different results but they don’t actually have a developed moral system. They are purely self-centered and result driven. They also quite often simply lack any cognitive tools or abilities to control their own emotions. Knowing that a behavior will bring negative consequences is not the same thing as knowing that it’s"wrong." Unless you provide a reliable and convincing cite, I will continue my belief that five years old is more than old enough to know right from wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/153 "2005-04-25T15:39:36Z")
> [@huk24](#): > > This is some pretty disturbing news footage, because I didn’t see the little girl bucking when the cops came, only when the teacher was trying to subdue her. And frankly, the cuffs were uncalled for – there should have been a trained child psychologist called in to talk with the kid, not cops. > > [Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old](http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_shows_police_ha.shtml) Sigh. Police put people in handcuffs to prevent from harming the cops, others or themselves. This kid was spazzed out and if you don’t think that you can’t be hurt by a 5 year old just because you’re bigger, think again. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/154 "2005-04-25T15:43:24Z")
> [@Daisy Mae](#): > > Finally, someone who has all of the answers! /end sarcasm > > So in your esteemed opinion, what _exactly_ should they have done? They tried to call her mother who refused to come. They tried telling her no, tried to have her sit down, removed all of the kids who _do_ know how to control themselves, tried reinforcing her good behavior choices, tried explaining why what she was doing was wrong, moved her to a room where she had less room to be destructive, tried to block her way from ripping said room to pieces, fended off her repeated physical attacks, protected her from herself when she decided to hop around on a tabletop, and spent WAYYYYYY too much of their time ignoring children who were trying to learn while playing goalie to this little “angel.” > > It has already been established they are NOT allowed to touch her unless preventing her from harming herself. Exactly WHAT do you think they should have done? Should they have had to stay there with her letting her rip up the room until the Mother of the Year arrived? What if this was happening at 11am and her mother couldn’t be there until 3:30pm? > > As for all five year olds being innocent? WTF? Ohh puhhhleeeze. I guess six must be the magical age where kids can go from innocent to bad. Just ask the [parent of the dead six year old in Michigan](http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/02/29/school.shooting.03/) whose child was shot by a fellow 1st grader. OK I’m sorry for quoting everything you said, I’m not good at quoting parts. Basicaly what you said in your first paragraph…YES. The mother refused to come to the school? OH WHAT A SHOCK! Generaly the children jumping on the tables have the mothers lining up to come to school 😃 They should have taken her from the class. OH NO they couldn’t have…except when they did, eh? If a child is kicking up that kind of stink it is because they have an audience. Take the audience away the stink grows smaller. If the child proceeds to “Arnie level” and there is no parent on the way? Well then it is a good thing they are no longer in a classroom with other children isn’t it. This is where Principal comes in. They rarely have classes. They are “in charge”. They sit in front of a closed door and let the wee beast rip the room apart. When school ends they inform the parent the beast is no longer welcome. The parent then deals …or most likely doesn’t deal with the situation. Though this situation was unusual because it ended up on tv, it wasn’t unusual in the fact that a teacher had to deal with a out of control 5 year old. I GUARANTEE that her situation is played out almost daily WITHOUT handcuffs and 3 cops. ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/155 "2005-04-25T15:49:58Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > They sit in front of a closed door and let the wee beast rip the room apart. What you are saying is that you believe you should give control to the kid and allow them to rip the room apart? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/156 "2005-04-25T15:50:34Z")
> [@BiblioCat](#): > > That’s what I’d like to know, why the mom couldn’t come in. What sort of job does she have that she’ll be fired for going to get her out-of-control child? What if she’d been injured or was sick? Are there really employers out there who’ll fire people for having to leave early in an emergency involving their child? I just think the argument of “She might have been fired!” is sort of a strawman, but that’s just my opinion. Unfortunately, yes there are employers like that. I’ve been fortunate enough to have never worked for one, but I’ve friends and neighbors who have. It’s especially difficult if you have a problem child. Once or twice might be fine. Fifth time in a month and some employers patience and compassion might be tested. > [@BiblioCat](#): > > Bullshit, they do know right from wrong. Five-year-olds are the epitome of knowing what’s right and wrong and what’s fair - they’re just figuring out the world and how it works, and they know this type of behavior is “wrong.” > They damn well know that running around the room, disturbing other kids, ripping bulletin boards down, breaking things that belong to other people is all wrong. I can only speak for my situation, as we did not try group counseling, but here I’ll agree. > [@BiblioCat](#): > > As I said in my previous post, I teach preschool, older 4s and younger 5s. It’s a private school, all the familes are quite well-off, and some of the kids are spoiled and indulged beyond belief. > I recognize this behavior all too well. This kid has never been told “No” or that she’s not allowed to do something and she’s probably had every whim indulged since she was born. And here I’ll disagree, again speaking from _my_ experience. I’ve seen more than enough spoiled brats, and I’d hate to be in your shoes as you have seen and have had to deal many more, plus their parents. I wasn’t dealing with that. My son was told (and now, at 15, is still told) “No” quite often. He was and still is punished when he did wrong. What we had to learn as parents was to be able to tell when he was a 6-12ish child misbehaving, when punishments would be affective, and when he was a 6-12ish child with absolutely no control, when punishments would be inaffective (easier than it sounds, when you learn what to look for). ---
**Author:** ![Diane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2acd7d/32.png) [@Diane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diane)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/157 "2005-04-25T15:55:09Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > Generaly the children jumping on the tables have the mothers lining up to come to school 😃 As a mother, I would have been to that school so fast and ready to dole out a spanking your head woulda spun. > [@calm kiwi](#): > > They should have taken her from the class. OH NO they couldn’t have…except when they did, eh? > > If a child is kicking up that kind of stink it is because they have an audience. Take the audience away the stink grows smaller. Except the stink didn’t grow smaller, did it? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/158 "2005-04-25T15:57:49Z")
> [@Diane](#): > > What you are saying is that you believe you should give control to the kid and allow them to rip the room apart? :eek: The alternative being calling the cops on a five year old? Damn yeah. I’m still worrying about what kind of school has to have the police as a back up. Hello?? IT IS A SCHOOL! Schools generaly contain people trained in child behaviour. The police? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/159 "2005-04-25T15:58:57Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > If the child proceeds to “Arnie level” and there is no parent on the way? Well then it is a good thing they are no longer in a classroom with other children isn’t it. This is where Principal comes in. They rarely have classes. They are “in charge”. They sit in front of a closed door and let the wee beast rip the room apart. > > When school ends they inform the parent the beast is no longer welcome. The parent then deals …or most likely doesn’t deal with the situation. I can’t believe you think it would be okay to just let an out-of-control child rip a room apart. That just tells them know it’s okay to destroy other people’s belongings. And here in the US, kicking a child out of a regular school isn’t all that easy. There have to be meetings upon meetings with the parents, the principal, the teachers, counselors, members of the school board - with months of behavior problems documented, reported, and several rounds of “Well, let’s try this new approach” and “Maybe this other method will work” and “Now let’s try this other way.” And then (here in Maryland, in my county, at least), the child is just transferred to a school for problem children. ---
**Author:** ![Wallet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e99b99/32.png) [@Wallet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallet)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858/160 "2005-04-25T16:00:58Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > I agree. This child acted well beyond the normal 5 year old level of behaviour. > > However I find it hard to see how anyone experienced with children could have let her behaviour escalate to the point where police were required. > > This was a five year old! I’ve taught Kindergarten for 17 years, so I think I have a little bit of experience dealing with this age group. I’m sorry to give my opinion, but here in the States it’s common for the media to blame teachers first whenever there are problems at school. I think the two educators videotaped acted with remarkable restraint, given the volitile situation. In my inner-city school district, we are _not_ allowed to touch a child - even a tap on the shoulder could be grounds for being brought up on corporal punishment charges. Over the years I’ve had my share of violent 5 year olds. It’s not as common now, but when crack was prevalent our “crack babies” (children born addicted to crack) were terrors. They literally had the strength of 10, and would hurl entire desks at the other children. I’ve had children (themselves abused) attempt to sodomize others in the classroom. One child carved a make-shift knife from a broken part of his chair, and stabbed another child. I’ve been scratched, bitten, and hit by flying chairs over the years. Is this the exception rather the rule? Of course. I love all of my kids, and the majority are wonderful. However, some of you seem to be living in a daydream world where every child comes from a nurturing and loving home. Sadly, this isn’t always the case. Teaching - it’s not a job for sissies. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-shows-police-handcuffing-5-year-old/300858.md?page=9)