# Video Surveillance during Gay Days at Disney **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550 "2001-06-04T17:58:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/61 "2001-06-05T18:04:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*If I could be so bold as to interpret what I thought goboy was saying (which is also what I think) is that Christians are A-OK, but the Church, the leadership, is intolerant towards gays, for the most part. Bingo! That’s exactly what I’ve been saying (although my posts have been crystal clear, the other posters have yet to grasp that point.) \*\* [/QUOTE] Pardon me for being obtuse, then. When I hear people saying “Christians do this” and “Christians do that” it irritates me. Just because someone believes in Christ doesn’t make them a Christian; hell, the devil believes in Christ. It also means living by the teachings of Christ (or at least coming as close as is humanly possible). So-called “Christians” who don’t do this aren’t Christians at all. Oh, I forgot; I can’t go back and “change the definition” like that. I’m gonna have to join **Tranquilis** on this particular subject, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/62 "2001-06-05T18:33:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*Because I get tired of getting stepped on. In your scenario, the bullies win; that is unacceptable. I don’t advocate violence or harming them in any way, but it is absolutely necessary to tell the bigots that their behavior is vile. I’m not letting any goddam sonofabitch tell me that I’m a second-class citizen, that my inmost nature is inferior, that I’m bad and undeserving of love. Fuck that sideways. \*\* Then it won’t stop, because the people you’re fighting on the other side of this issue will keep up their tactics of hate and idiocy. They aren’t smart enough to stop. So how is this going to help you? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/63 "2001-06-05T18:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > > But the Southern Baptist leadership DID declare a boycott, did they not? Would a gay couple be welcome in your church, honestly? > > Yup. They declared a boycott. And as far as I can tell, it accomplished squat. Didn’t affect anyone I know (admittedly a small subset of the overall population). > \*\* They did. But recall, what the Southern Baptist national leadership does, the local churches aren’t obliged to follow. Most ignored the Disney ban and kept going. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/64 "2001-06-05T19:17:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > I’m gonna have to join **Tranquilis** on this particular subject, I guess. You say that like it’s a _bad_ thing… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/65 "2001-06-05T19:20:10Z")
For those who are interested, I’ve started a tangential thread entitled [“Any other Disney freaks out there?”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=73255), if anyone’s interested in talking more about All Things Disney without hijacking this thread. Thanks. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/66 "2001-06-05T19:22:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > … what the Southern Baptist national leadership does, the local churches aren’t obliged to follow. Most ignored the Disney ban and kept going. That was my point to **goboy**. Just because the Southern Baptist Convention decrees something doesn’t mean all Southern Baptists automatically fall into lockstep and denounce Disney because of its stance on gay rights. All Southern Baptists that I know ignored the action, because they didn’t agree with it. To use that non-event as an example of the horrible oppression being suffered by gays and lesbians is wrong, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/67 "2001-06-05T19:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\*Have you heard of the True Scotsman fallacy? They go to church, they believe in Jesus, they’re Christians. You don’t get to say, “Well, no _true_ Christian acts like that.” > You’re changing the definition to bolster your argument. Wrong. Try this… > [@](#): > > Matthew 7:18-21 > “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” Not everyone who call themselves a Christian is a Christian. This type of knee-jerk hate isn’t a part of God’s plan. > [@](#): > > Needless to say, I’ve no support whatsoever for generic hatred and prejudice. From any quarter. Rather than hijack this further, I’ll just ask you to agree to disagree. Easier to walk away than admit you’re wrong. \*\* [/QUOTE] Great comeback, **Goboy**! Too bad it’s 100% off base. Reread his sentance, then think about what I’ve been saying. No matter what quarter it comes from, Hate is never justified. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/68 "2001-06-05T20:44:38Z")
> [@](#): > > To use that non-event as an example of the horrible oppression being suffered by gays and lesbians is wrong, in my opinion. a: Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said one word about horrible oppression. Life in America for gay folks isn’t what it should be, but this is gay paradise compared to South Korea, where openly gay people are ostracised from their families and lose their jobs, or Afghanistan, where the Taliban tumble walls down on gay people. It’s disingenuous of you guys to say that because the boycott fizzled, that it never happened or that gay people are loved and welcomed by Christians. In addition, you may be able to distinguish between true and false Christians, but we who don’t have the gift of discernment have to go along with what we see. > [@](#): > > Reread his sentance, then think about what I’ve been saying. No matter what quarter it comes from, Hate is never justified. See, you guys continue to ignore what I post. I have already said \*\* I don’t hate Christians!\*\* What part of that do you fail to grasp? If you want hate, think of how another intemperate gay poster (naming no names) would have responded. Surely you’ve heard of James Dobson and [Focus on the Family?](http://www.family.org/docstudy/solid/a0003253.html) He says Christians should be nice to are celibate homosexuals who are trying desperately to live godly lives," in other words fighting their filthy urges to love and be loved so God won’t send them to Hell. How compassionate. Homos are OK as long as they don’t have sex with each other. So Dobson is, what, a Taoist? I checked the positions of different denominations, her’s what I found. [Transforming Congregations,](http://www.umc.org/genconf/news/gtransfo.html) a United Methodist ex-gay group. They want to deliver gays from the sin of homosexuality. The[Presbyterians](http://www.sptimes.com/News/031501/TampaBay/Presbyterian_Church_v.shtml) seem to be divided. The [Episcopalians](http://www.primenet.com/~bcglm/wherewestand.html) welcome gay folks. I apologize to you Episcopalians. Y’all are cool. We’ve already heard from the Baptists. According to [Courage](http://www.CourageRC.org/chastity.html), a Roman Catholic ministry to gays, "we may conclude, any voluntary sexual arousal or act outside of a normal (uncontracepted) marital union of husband and wife is seriously sinful. This would include masturbation, fornication, extramarital foreplay, adultery, **homosexual acts** , and even lustful thoughts (Mt 5:28). So according to the RCs, I can be gay, but I better keep my mitts to myself if I want to go to heaven. ooops, no maturbation: I’ll just keep my mitts out here in the open, shall I. From I could tell from this small sampling, the most charitable interpretation is that gays have warped natures, but as long as they give up any hope of ever having sex for the rest of their lives, they’ll go to heaven. Why do I feel like I’ve been insulted? _Removed a smilie, because **goboy** has been a good boy this week - Coldfire_ [Edited by Coldfire on 06-05-2001 at 06:16 PM] ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/69 "2001-06-05T20:57:05Z")
I have no idea why there is a smiley in the first line of my previous post. Mods, a little help? To be fair, every denomination I looked at had a pro-gay branch that welcomed lesbian and gay people, even the Baptists. However, they act in defiance of their respective churches, except for the Episcopalians. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/70 "2001-06-05T20:57:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\* > That was my point to **goboy**. Just because the Southern Baptist Convention decrees something doesn’t mean all Southern Baptists automatically fall into lockstep and denounce Disney because of its stance on gay rights. \*\* And as far as I can tell, that is what goboy has been saying as well. His problem isn’t with individual Christians, it’s with the leadership that tries to dictate the direction and policies of the religion. Such as the Baptist thing trying to get all SBs to boycott Disney. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/71 "2001-06-05T21:06:41Z")
Let me put this as simply as I can. There are many pro-gay Christians who believe that God loves gay people just as they are. However, the official doctrines of most of the denominations I looked at, by no means exhaustive, say that gays can be saved if they renounce their sexuality because gayness is sinful. I find that unacceptable. And one more time, \*\* I don’t hate Christians!\*\*, so stop saying I do. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/72 "2001-06-05T21:22:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > To use that non-event as an example of the horrible oppression being suffered by gays and lesbians is wrong, in my opinion. > > a:Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said one word about horrible oppression. Life in America for gay folks isn’t what it should be, but this is gay paradise compared to South Korea, where openly gay people are ostracised from their families and lose their jobs, or Afghanistan, where the Taliban tumble walls down on gay people. > > \*It’s disingenuous of you guys to say that because the boycott fizzled, that it never happened or that gay people are loved and welcomed by Christians. \*In addition, you may be able to distinguish between true and false Christians, but we who don’t have the gift of discernment have to go along with what we see. (Emphasis mine – Sauron.) You’re STILL DOING what you claim you’re not. Christians _will_ love and welcome gay people, based upon commandments from our Savior and His specific instructions. CHURCHES may not do this, but CHRISTIANS will. There’s a difference. If you have a problem with the stances of churches or religions on homosexuality, that’s fine. Don’t paint all Christians with that brush. And my apologies for trying to empathize with your situation. I wasn’t being sarcastic when I mentioned the “horrible oppression” gays and lesbians suffer. I believe the list of wrongs you gave earlier are horrible; my point was that the boycott organized by the Southern Baptist Convention wasn’t effective at all. Did it happen? Yes; I never said it didn’t. (That was a bit disingenuous of you, don’t you think? Are you putting words in my mouth?) I said it was a _non-event_; in other words, an event or occurrence that is boring or does not fulfill expectations. In the future, I’ll just let gays and lesbians fight their own histrionic battles about videotapes at DisneyWorld. I’m sure that’ll further your efforts immeasurably. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/73 "2001-06-05T21:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*His problem isn’t with individual Christians, it’s with the leadership that tries to dictate the direction and policies of the religion. Such as the Baptist thing trying to get all SBs to boycott Disney. \*\* My problem with his posts (until **LaurAnge** stepped in) was: - The tone: Go back, re-read the OP and his replies to me, and put yourself in my shoes. See if you wouldn’t be offended. - The lumping of all Christians under some nebulous ‘leadership’: Sorry to inform you, Christianity is so diffuse as to defy leadership. Go ahead, tell me I’ve a leader in my belief: You’ll be right, I’ve got one. He died roughly 2000 years ago. Anyone else is just a minister. Yes, there are large organized denominations, and large groups that have roughly similar beliefs, but even the Baptists have some 20+ major sub-divisions. Hell, if the Roman Catholics can’t keep order in the ranks, what makes you believe the rest of Christianity is a neatly ordered group? And why is it, if the Baptists are such a thorn, that no one’s gone off on the Conservative Baptists? They believe in ways that the _Southern Baptists_ feel are extreme. Anyway, now that **goboy** has turned down the tone, I’m fine with him. He does have a valid point about the video, and fundies, he just doesn’t need to be lumping them in with the majority of Christians. There does exist a significant number of people whom testify in the name of Christ, whom don’t follow his teachings. Call them what they are: Ignorant Fundamentalists. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/74 "2001-06-05T21:39:19Z")
I never said that Christians are organized orderly, or that they all follow leadership. I said that there are leaders (and organizations) who **try** to dictate attitudes and policy for the religion as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/75 "2001-06-05T21:46:08Z")
Sauron said: > [@](#): > > CHURCHES may not do this, but CHRISTIANS will. There’s a difference. If you have a problem with the stances of churches or religions on homosexuality, that’s fine. Don’t paint all Christians with that brush. Okay, I’m going to take a big leap and say that if a person believes in Jesus, goes to Church and believes they are doing the right thing before Jesus and/or G-d, they are Christian. I don’t really think you can say from solely **your** perspective who is Christian and who isn’t depending on your beliefs. I’m sure people like Phelps would call you a bad Christian, or not a Christian at all. Don’t paint all Christians with **any** brush. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/76 "2001-06-05T21:52:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > I don’t really think you can say from solely **your** perspective who is Christian and who isn’t depending on your beliefs. I’m sure people like Phelps would call you a bad Christian, or not a Christian at all. > > Don’t paint all Christians with **any** brush. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/77 "2001-06-05T23:35:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > I said that there are leaders (and organizations) who **try** to dictate attitudes and policy for the religion as a whole. On that, we’re in complete agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/78 "2001-06-05T23:46:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > Okay, I’m going to take a big leap and say that if a person believes in Jesus, goes to Church and believes they are doing the right thing before Jesus and/or G-d, they are Christian. I don’t really think you can say from solely **your** perspective who is Christian and who isn’t depending on your beliefs. I’m sure people like Phelps would call you a bad Christian, or not a Christian at all. > > Don’t paint all Christians with **any** brush. Yup, that’s a big leap, right enough. Until I see them in action, I’ll generally accept this as a working definition. Once they open their mouths, or otherwise take action, who they are becomes more clear. Of course, in no manner am I the Judge, but I _can_ make semi-educated guesses. Later, we’ll _all_ see who is right, and who is damned. I’ve _faith_ that I’m close enough for Christ. I’m pretty sure I’ll have more than a few gays and lesbians sharing eternity with me, no matter where I wind-up. Your last sentence is great advice for everyone, of every persuasion/orientation/gender/creed/etc. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550/79 "2001-06-10T18:23:13Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by manhattan \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I’ve seen homos/queers/faggots in their natuarl habitat. > Welcome back to Mutual of Omaha’s _Wild Kingdom_. Today, we’ll be exploring the natural habitat of… > my assistant Jim…\*\* That was excellent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/video-surveillance-during-gay-days-at-disney/67550.md?page=3)