# Vietnam: Communist success story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 5, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878 "2013-04-05T00:27:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/1 "2013-04-05T00:27:15Z")
I know about the disasters that are or were Castro’s Cuba, Stalin’s USSR, Tito’s Yugoslavia, Ceaucescu’s Romania, the Kims’ North Korea. I know about the oppression in China. But Vietnam? Ok, P.J. O’Rourke went to Vietnam before he completely flipped his shit, and said it was bad; Anthony Bourdain has done a bunch of shows from there and it looks fine. On the other hand, even then O’Rourke would be inclined to accentuate the negative, and Bourdain presumably didn’t show, and probably didn’t see, anything the Vietnamese leadership doesn’t want the rest of the world to know about, if anything. So what’s the story? Stable or crisis? Free or repressive, as these things go? Does anyone even know? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/2 "2013-04-05T00:58:58Z")
Here is a list of a number of ways to look at a country: > **[International rankings of Vietnam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_Vietnam)** > > The following are international rankings of Vietnam. Vietnam tends to fall below the half-way mark on most economic scales and falls near the bottom on most Political scales with Society scales again divided between just below the half-way mark and well below the half-way mark. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/3 "2013-04-05T01:06:06Z")
I don’t know about it being a communist success story. It was one of the poorest countries in the world until it embraced many capitalist practices. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/4 "2013-04-05T02:24:53Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > …So what’s the story? Stable or crisis? Free or repressive, as these things go? Does anyone even know? Stable and somewhat repressive, from all I’ve read. Like China, it’s embraced capitalism but remains a one-party state. As in China, you challenge the state at your peril: > **[2011 crackdown on Vietnamese youth activists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_crackdown_on_Vietnamese_youth_activists)** > > Between July 2011 and December 2011 a number of young Vietnamese Christian activists, primarily located in northern province of Nghệ An, Vietnam, and working with the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer, were arrested by the Vietnamese government for protesting for land rights and circulating a petition to free prominent legal rights activist Cu Huy Ha Vu, a prominent human rights defender who was imprisoned for seven years in April 2011. > Among them was 26-year-old high-profile blogger Paulu... > **[2013 conviction of Vietnamese dissidents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_conviction_of_14_Vietnamese_dissidents)** > > On January 8–9, 2013 a trial was held by the People's Court of Nghệ An Province, Vietnam for 14 democracy activists, > primarily belonging to the Catholic church, including high-profile blogger Paulus Le Son. All of them were sentenced to 3–13 years in prison on charges of subversion. Many human rights organizations have called this the "largest case of its kind" in Vietnam, and condemned the sentence. Many organizations, including the US Embassy in Vietnam, have called for an im All 14 defendants... > **[Việt Tân](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Tan)** > > The Vietnam Reform Revolutionary Party or the Việt Tân (Vietnamese: Việt Nam Canh tân Cách mạng Đảng) is an organisation that aims to establish liberal democracy and reform Vietnam through peaceful and political means. > The organization was founded on September 10, 1982, with Vice-admiral Hoàng Cơ Minh elected as chairman, which operated underground for two decades. On September 19, 2004, then-chairman Nguyễn Kim introduced Việt Tân as a public organization. Việt Tân's activities are rooted in ... ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/5 "2013-04-05T03:21:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I don’t know about it being a communist success story. It was one of the poorest countries in the world until it embraced many capitalist practices. Exactly. Today, it is Communist in name only managed by an authoritarian regime which profits from state-owned interests and lease of production rights. BTW, although the general quality of life may have been pretty miserable by Western standards, Yugoslavia under Tito had a viable economy that could could be considered a “success story”, at least in comparison to its Warsaw Pact neighbors, and impressive terms of absolute growth up until the early 'Seventies when the oil crisis and overindulgence in accessible IMF loans crippled the economy. Of course, it also brought in a lot of foreign cash by selling cheap manufactured goods and using inexpensive “guest labor” from the West, so just how successful it was as a genuine Marxian (or more properly ‘Titoan’) economy is questionable. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/6 "2013-04-05T03:32:04Z")
[Depends on who you ask.](http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/vietnam) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/7 "2013-04-05T04:07:21Z")
Vietnam is communist in name only. Free-wheeling capitalism rules the day. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/8 "2013-04-05T04:34:56Z")
Vietnam is growing because they’ve abandoned the economic model of communism. I don’t think that Venezuela counts as communist, they were more socialist but they had a lot of successes. Health care, education & poverty all got better. Venezuelas [HDI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index) went from 0.69 to 0.84 from 1998-2008. [http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org/?q=node/294](http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org/?q=node/294) [http://venezuela-us.org/images/cuadros/economia\_y\_desarrollo/hdi\_e.jpg](http://venezuela-us.org/images/cuadros/economia_y_desarrollo/hdi_e.jpg) I don’t know if there are any communist countries that have decent levels of human rights and civil rights. Nor are there any (that I know of) communist countries that follow centrally planned economies. But communist countries can do a lot to address poverty, gender inequality, class inequality, education, health care, etc. So those things are successes in their own right. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/9 "2013-04-05T06:47:03Z")
The first time I visited in 1993, the poverty in Viet Nam was just crushing, more than I’ve seen anywhere else. Still, it is a success story in some sense. None of their leaders became a homicidal maniac, not at the level of Mao or Stalin anyway. The fall of Saigon put the economy there back 25 years at least, but I think it might have been necessary. The communists/nationalists threw out the French, who wanted to reestablish their colony after abandoning it to the Japanese. Then the communists kicked out the Americans who were so keen to save Viet Nam from communism that they would light the country on fire to do it. For a country that had been invaded over and over through their history, those still remain defining events, even to the people who grumble about the communist regime, or moulder in its prisons. Despite that, they are getting prosperous now, more so than most people there can remember, and it’s as their own country, not as someone’s colony or puppet. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/10 "2013-04-05T07:40:50Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Exactly. Today, it is Communist in name only managed by an authoritarian regime which profits from state-owned interests and lease of production rights. > > BTW, although the general quality of life may have been pretty miserable by Western standards, Yugoslavia under Tito had a viable economy that could could be considered a “success story”, at least in comparison to its Warsaw Pact neighbors, and impressive terms of absolute growth up until the early 'Seventies when the oil crisis and overindulgence in accessible IMF loans crippled the economy. Of course, it also brought in a lot of foreign cash by selling cheap manufactured goods and using inexpensive “guest labor” from the West, so just how successful it was as a genuine Marxian (or more properly ‘Titoan’) economy is questionable. > > Stranger Yet Titoist communism had many especial little foibles of it’s own deep down. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/11 "2013-04-05T07:56:10Z")
Communism, according to Marx, is a society in which the surplus of goods produced is directly appropriated and distributed by those who produce it (i.e. the working class), and not on their behalf by some form of state. Under these conditions, the state will start gradually disappearing because its administrative functions are taken over by society as a whole. So, if there is a state apparatus deciding what to do with a country’s GNP, and moreover does so on the basis of political or physical repression so as to perpetuate its own existence, then it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be termed a “Communist success story”. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/12 "2013-04-05T07:57:27Z")
It’s the same old story: People who live in a communist system find ways to work around it. Sometimes the communist rulers are smart enough to loosen the grip (as long as the party big whigs and their cronies stay in power and receive their cut). I remember back in the day, the Soviet Union had to import grain from Canada, in spite of the fact that Russia and the Ukraine once were the bread basket of Europe. Then the communists decided to grant tiny chunks of land to ordinary citizens to farm for themselves and allow them to sell the produce. Although the size of these private lands was negligible compared to the kolkhoz and sovkhoz system, it soon accounted for a significant part of the total agricultural output. I guess it’s the same in Vietnam: The ruling party grants more and more economic freedoms, as long as the people don’t question party rule and pay lip service to the merits of the socialist system. And, as has been said, the party is still given credit for having been an important factor in unifying the country and driving out foreign powers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/13 "2013-04-05T12:59:14Z")
In my opinion, the governments of China and Vietnam are still communist at their core. They’re just presiding over capitalist economies. As an analogy, they regard capitalism the way the Saudi government regards oil: it’s a resource to be used by the government not a way of life. This will cause problems if the governments of these countries and the people of these countries end up disagreeing over the role of capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/14 "2013-04-05T14:16:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In my opinion, the governments of China and Vietnam are still communist at their core. Aren’t the Chinese leaders billionaires? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/15 "2013-04-05T14:25:08Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > None of their leaders became a homicidal maniac, not at the level of Mao or Stalin anyway. The fall of Saigon put the economy there back 25 years at least, but I think it might have been necessary. There was more than a little bit of blood shed at that time, and all the usual Communist nightmares attended. It’s awfully convenient to call such a distant even “necessary” sitting in your comfortable living room. “Yes - yes, very sad, right? Now let’s get back to surfing and and watching reruns.” It was horrible, and frequently _final_, for the people living it. It didn’t have to happen either; it was not inevitable. > [@](#): > > Despite that, they are getting prosperous now, more so than most people there can remember, and it’s as their own country, not as someone’s colony or puppet. Only because of complex geopolitics. Like North Korea, they were effectively a Soviet puppet back in the day, but the split betwen Russia and China and geographical isolation meant it wasn’t either for either to excercise control over them as occurred in many other nations. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/16 "2013-04-05T15:02:19Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > The first time I visited in 1993, the poverty in Viet Nam was just crushing, more than I’ve seen anywhere else. Still, it is a success story in some sense. None of their leaders became a homicidal maniac, not at the level of Mao or Stalin anyway. The fall of Saigon put the economy there back 25 years at least, but I think it might have been necessary. The communists/nationalists threw out the French, who wanted to reestablish their colony after abandoning it to the Japanese. Then the communists kicked out the Americans who were so keen to save Viet Nam from communism that they would light the country on fire to do it. For a country that had been invaded over and over through their history, those still remain defining events, even to the people who grumble about the communist regime, or moulder in its prisons. Despite that, they are getting prosperous now, more so than most people there can remember, and it’s as their own country, not as someone’s colony or puppet. Something I read said that America’s biggest helper in WWII fighting the Japanese, was one Ho Chi Mihn. In return, he expected the American’s help in establishing his homeland as an independent country. However, thanks to European politics and touchy frenchmen, the USA instead handed the land back to France. Ho turned to the only people who were happy to support his struggle for independence. So he may have mouthed the words and go through the actions of communist ideals, but the major impetus was independence. IIRC there was always a long-standing animosity with the Chinese; they were fair-weather friends and when they were no longer needed to supply the war against the USA, they ended up fighting a war with them; also, one factoid I recall was that a large number of boat people were ethnic Chinese. The Hanoi government was happy to see them leave and may have even encouraged rather than try to stop them. Like the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese during the cold war supported whoever would give then a global advantage, and only expected them to pretend to mouth some of the platitudes of ther sponsor nation, just like we supported dictators in Taiwan, Pakistan, Chile, S. Korea and so on, only asking that they promise democratic reforms and say they were in favour of human rights. yeah, right. So Vietnam’s commitment to communism was never very srong - they used the words to simply bolster a basic repressive dictatorship like any other of the left or right. Once the Soviet Union disappeared, they could not do a 180 overnight, but there was no incentive to go hogwild with ideological behaviour like collectivisation or banning non-state enterprise. they looked at what China was doing, an saw it worked. Current Vietnamese progress is built on two things - a willingness to allow free-enterprise capitalism like the Chinese, and being poor enough to undercut Chinese labour costs. I suppose another advantage of lip service to communism was the attempt to improve the education of the population. (Cuba is a good example of this). While western-backed dictators basicaly could not care about education, it being a drain on the resources that produced uppity students, communism sees education as a goal to improve the lot of the population. If you want to expand the technological level of your society, education is a good start. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/17 "2013-04-05T18:47:32Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Something I read said that America’s biggest helper in WWII fighting the Japanese, was one Ho Chi Mihn. In return, he expected the American’s help in establishing his homeland as an independent country. However, thanks to European politics and touchy frenchmen, the USA instead handed the land back to France. Ho turned to the only people who were happy to support his struggle for independence. So he may have mouthed the words and go through the actions of communist ideals, but the major impetus was independence. > > IIRC there was always a long-standing animosity with the Chinese; they were fair-weather friends and when they were no longer needed to supply the war against the USA, they ended up fighting a war with them; also, one factoid I recall was that a large number of boat people were ethnic Chinese. The Hanoi government was happy to see them leave and may have even encouraged rather than try to stop them. > > Like the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese during the cold war supported whoever would give then a global advantage, and only expected them to pretend to mouth some of the platitudes of ther sponsor nation, just like we supported dictators in Taiwan, Pakistan, Chile, S. Korea and so on, only asking that they promise democratic reforms and say they were in favour of human rights. yeah, right. > > So Vietnam’s commitment to communism was never very srong - they used the words to simply bolster a basic repressive dictatorship like any other of the left or right. Once the Soviet Union disappeared, they could not do a 180 overnight, but there was no incentive to go hogwild with ideological behaviour like collectivisation or banning non-state enterprise. they looked at what China was doing, an saw it worked. Current Vietnamese progress is built on two things - a willingness to allow free-enterprise capitalism like the Chinese, and being poor enough to undercut Chinese labour costs. > > I suppose another advantage of lip service to communism was the attempt to improve the education of the population. (Cuba is a good example of this). While western-backed dictators basicaly could not care about education, it being a drain on the resources that produced uppity students, communism sees education as a goal to improve the lot of the population. If you want to expand the technological level of your society, education is a good start. Ho Chi Minh helped fight the Japanese but the fight in Vietnam was not particularly important to the overall war. Minh had been a Communist since the early 20s at least and had studied in the USSR in 1924. The idea that he accepted Russian and Chinese support because they were the only ones willing is not true. They had supported him because he was a communist and was willing to take their orders. The boat people were people who the communist government had put in labor camps because they supported the south vietnamese government, or were ethnic chinese who the government had forced into slavery in the jungle. Once established as the government of all Vietnam the communists collectived agriculture and took control of private enterprises. Famine and misery predictably followed. Since the 1990s capitalism has been allowed back and Vietnam started growing again. In general, the causality runs the other way among developing countries, first countries start to get rich and then they start educating their children. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/18 "2013-04-05T19:44:44Z")
From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > In April 1945 Ho met with the OSS agent Archimedes Patti and offered to provide intelligence to the allies provided that he could have “a line of communication with the allies.” [20] The OSS agreed to this and later sent a military team of OSS members to train Ho’s men and Ho himself was treated for malaria and dysentery by an OSS doctor.[21] > > Following the August Revolution (1945) organized by the Viet Minh, Ho became Chairman of the Provisional Government (Premier of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam) and issued a Proclamation of Independence of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.[22] Although he convinced Emperor Bao Dai to abdicate, his government was not recognized by any country. He repeatedly petitioned American President Harry S. Truman for support for Vietnamese independence,[23] citing the Atlantic Charter, but Truman never responded.[ Reading this and other bits, it seems we pretty much pushed away an independent Vietnam; Ho did not seem to be a rabid ideologue. Of course, he and his party had no qualms about mass murder and did collectivisation and land reform with brutal results… But considering he asked for support at the end of the war and received none from the West, how surprised whould we be that he turned to the only ones who would support him - despite his apparent despisal of the Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/19 "2013-04-05T19:47:33Z")
Well, Patti was probably going to screw him over anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878/20 "2013-04-05T20:10:56Z")
FWIW, I’ve read several accounts by American POWs at the Hanoi Hilton who wrote that their food and treatment improved only after Ho died in Sept. 1969. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-communist-success-story/654878.md?page=2)