# Vietnam era. Protestors spitting on soldiers. Myth vs reality+McGovern/Nixon **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 20, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392 "2011-08-20T00:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/61 "2011-08-22T17:38:28Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The burden is upon those who claim it is so. Nobody can prove that something didn’t happen. Why has no protester in all those 1,000 incidents you cited admitted to doing something like this? Do you really believe that that many people can keep quiet, let alone all the thousands that were with them? Yet I’ve seen no accounts from protesters of that era that tell of spitting. Seems a bit odd to me in this era of tell-all-for-profit stories. How do you know no protestor has admiited such a thing? That sounds like I’m placing the burden on you, and I’m not. I agree to establish that a particular spitting incident happened, the burden is on me to show it. But it sounds like you’re arguing that absent such documentation, we know, strongly, that such a thing never happened. That’s not true either. And of course, when I offer up individuals that remember being spat upon, you discount that as mere anecdotal evidence. Which is what led me to ask what evidence would be acceptable as proof. Why is the evidence mention in my post #55 insufficient? ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/62 "2011-08-22T17:52:06Z")
I think the claim that ‘nope, it never ever ever happened, not even once, it’s an urban myth created to defame the anti-war people’ as strange as the claim that it happened all the time. I realize it’s anecdotal and unprovable to all of you, but what I saw (Post #5) was, IMO, much worse than spit. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/63 "2011-08-22T17:53:40Z")
There were well over a million people in the Military. There were over a million anti-war radicals. It’s very probable that there was the occasional spitting incident. The question is whether it was widespread. It doesn’t seem like it was. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/64 "2011-08-22T17:53:54Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So, an account of one anti-Iraq war protester spitting on the ground near a veteran after an unspecified verbal confrontation proves the meme that anti-Vietnam war protesters habitually spat upon helpless veterans returning home? You actually believe that? > [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Of course, the first instance of the word “habitually” in this thread is your use of it, ascribing a view to me. What word or phrase in my post supports your characterizing my answer as referring to “habitually?” The OP said: > [@](#): > > There is that undying meme of “soldiers returning from vietnam were spit on”. He is referring to the meme/urban legend that signifies that protesters spitting on returning Vietnam veterans was commonplace - **not** the possibility that somewhere, at sometime, someone did this. Since you’re citing a columnist’s poll of servicement as evidence that such actions did habitually occur (in the absence of police reports or any similar solid evidence), your complaint about use of the word “habitually” has been rendered moot. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/65 "2011-08-22T18:51:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know no protestor has admiited such a thing? > > That sounds like I’m placing the burden on you, and I’m not. I agree to establish that a particular spitting incident happened, the burden is on me to show it. > > But it sounds like you’re arguing that absent such documentation, we know, strongly, that such a thing never happened. That’s not true either. > > And of course, when I offer up individuals that remember being spat upon, you discount that as mere anecdotal evidence. Which is what led me to ask what evidence would be acceptable as proof. > > Why is the evidence mention in my post #55 insufficient? I don’t, of course. However, lacking anyone coming forward and admitting such a thing, I maintain my right to disbelieve vets who say it happened. 1,000 people saying it happened is just 1,000 separate anecdotes from people who likely feel they need some sort of validation. Five protesters (or GIs) from the same crowd swearing they observed it on the same day is evidence, however weak. We hold people to this standard in thread after thread, but for some reason it doesn’t seem to apply to this particular subject. At any rate, it’s pointless to argue it further, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![taffygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@taffygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taffygirl)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/66 "2011-08-22T19:34:01Z")
[quote=“Chefguy, post:65, topic:593392”] I 1,000 people saying it happened is just 1,000 separate anecdotes from people who likely feel they need some sort of validation. QUOTE] In an aggregate of sufficient size, anecdotal evidence is still valid evidence. My real question, though, is slightly OT, but I’d like to make sure I understand. There are repeated calls for verification in this particular thread. In GQ, there’s a pretty clear cut standard that claims be cited and verified. Does that same standard apply to IMHO? I’d been thinking that since this is the opinion/poll board, perhaps the standards are different, but maybe it depends more on the statement made in a thread than on the board where it’s posted. I don’t want to screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/67 "2011-08-22T20:07:16Z")
> [@taffygirl](#): > > > [@Chefguy](#): > > > > I 1,000 people saying it happened is just 1,000 separate anecdotes from people who likely feel they need some sort of validation. > > In an aggregate of sufficient size, anecdotal evidence is still valid evidence. Hmm. [Here’s](http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=8330290) an account of a support group for victims of alien abduction, which boasted 1,500 members. By your standard of “valid evidence”, the claims of both the veteran spittees and the alien abductees are both valid. The reports from the alien abductees might even be said to be 1.5 times as valid as those of the veterans Bob Greene says he heard from. Or we can recognize that unsupported anecdotes are a pitifully weak form of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/68 "2011-08-22T20:24:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The OP said:He is referring to the meme/urban legend that signifies that protesters spitting on returning Vietnam veterans was commonplace - **not** the possibility that somewhere, at sometime, someone did this. > > Since you’re citing a columnist’s poll of servicement as evidence that such actions did habitually occur (in the absence of police reports or any similar solid evidence), your complaint about use of the word “habitually” has been rendered moot. OK, that’s fair. I didn’t intend to speak to “habitually,” but rather simply to say that it’s unlikely that it NEVER happened. But you’re correct to point out that the theme of the thread was the meme, not the existence of a single or few isolated instances. I should have been clear about my own distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/69 "2011-08-23T00:24:04Z")
Yeah, I just can’t get my head around it. I, like most folks, have an instinct for self preservation. Even If I hated troops returning from combat (which would be just stupid, BTW), I would certainly think twice before I spat upon someone who was \*trained to kill \*and may have done it recently. I would expect someone to open a can of whoop-ass. The idea that peace\love\hippie types would be so _aggressive_ and military types would be so _passive_ in the face of it… ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/70 "2011-08-23T01:19:37Z")
Annie-Xmas, thanks for mentioning the Tom Paxton song. Do you know about “And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda” by Eric Bogle?: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WG48Ftsr3OI/hqdefault.jpg "Eric Bogle - The Band Played Waltzing Matilda") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG48Ftsr3OI) Bitterness by veterans goes back long before the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/71 "2011-08-23T01:59:59Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Yeah, I just can’t get my head around it. > > I, like most folks, have an instinct for self preservation. > > Even If I hated troops returning from combat (which would be just stupid, BTW), I would certainly think twice before I spat upon someone who was \*trained to kill \*and may have done it recently. I would expect someone to open a can of whoop-ass. The idea that peace\love\hippie types would be so _aggressive_ and military types would be so _passive_ in the face of it… That’s a very facile analysis. Some of those peace/love/hippie types were busy [making and setting bombs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion) And some of them would have loved to incite a brutal response in order to portray the baby-killers as out of control. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/72 "2011-08-23T02:13:41Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Quite apart from allegations of spitting, one of the recurring themes you hear with regard to Viet Nam vets is “World War 2 veterans were greeted with parades and treated as heroes when they came home, while Viet Nam vets were shunned.” > > In reality, most World War 2 vets would scoff at the idea that they were feted and treated like royalty when they came home. Most of the elderly WW2 vets I’ve known would tell you something like, “I got on the bus, I got home late at night. My Mom got me some dinner, and I went to bed. Next morning, my Dad told me I’d better find a job. And that was the extent of my glorious welcome. NOBODY much cared that I was a ‘war hero,’ because practically EVERYBODY my age had been in the war and had been as much a hero as I was.” > > Very, very few veterans of ANY war have been greeted with ticker tape parades and big parties when they came home. This. It was their job. They did it and came home. Tickertape parades were for astronauts, fifteen years later. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/73 "2011-08-23T02:47:16Z")
BTW, spitting on guys who 36 hours before were In-Country is suicidal. And the number of dead hippies is? ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/74 "2011-08-23T03:20:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And some of them would have loved to incite a brutal response in order to portray the baby-killers as out of control. Speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/75 "2011-08-23T04:02:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Some of those peace/love/hippie types were busy [making and setting bombs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion) I dunno, spitting seems kind of tame for people willing to blow up things. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/76 "2011-08-23T12:49:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hmm. [Here’s](http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=8330290) an account of a support group for victims of alien abduction, which boasted 1,500 members. > > By your standard of “valid evidence”, the claims of both the veteran spittees and the alien abductees are both valid. The reports from the alien abductees might even be said to be 1.5 times as valid as those of the veterans Bob Greene says he heard from. > > Or we can recognize that unsupported anecdotes are a pitifully weak form of evidence. This comparison fails to recognize the dictum that “claims require proof, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof.” If those same 1,500 people claimed to have exceeded the speed limit on Interstate 95, none of us would blink at their claims – because we know that it’s perfectly plausible to imagine someone speeding on an interstate highway, and assuming the claim is true requires no great leap of either imagination or supposition. We doubt the claims of the 1,500 supposed alien abductees because their claim is so much more extraordinary, so outside our picture of what a normal human experience is, that we rightly demand high levels of proof. When we hear of one human being spitting on another, I contend that’s much closer to speeding on I-95 than it is to alien abduction in terms of raw mathematical likelihood. It is difficult for me to credit the certainty that no spitting incident ever happened anywhere. At the same time, given the lack of documented incidents, it’s difficult for me to believe it was anything approaching a widespread phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/77 "2011-08-23T12:52:54Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I dunno, spitting seems kind of tame for people willing to blow up things. :dubious: But if they forgot all their bomb-making stuff at home, what do want them to do? Throw dirty socks? Really, you have to have some perspective here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/78 "2011-08-23T12:54:27Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > Speculation. But in response to the speculation that spitting on a vet would have inspired a murderous response. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Surb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Surb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Surb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/79 "2011-08-23T14:39:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But in response to the speculation that spitting on a vet would have inspired a murderous response. So I have to ask, do you really believe that there were a multitude of returning vets being spat upon or are you just arguing to argue? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392/80 "2011-08-23T16:11:51Z")
> [@The\_Surb](#): > > So I have to ask, do you really believe that there were a multitude of returning vets being spat upon or are you just arguing to argue? The question you ask is answered in the last sentence of post #76. Did you read post #76? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-era-protestors-spitting-on-soldiers-myth-vs-reality-mcgovern-nixon/593392.md?page=5)