# Vietnam War hero gets Medal of Honor, but keeps hat on. WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770 "2007-02-26T21:02:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/21 "2007-02-27T15:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] It’s the same hat. As **Spavined Gelding** mentioned, in Vietnam the Air Calvary adopted the accoutrements of the calvary of the Indian Wars of the late 1800s, including the black Stetson. I believe Crandall as well as Duvall’s character were members of the 7th Cavalry, the same unit as George Armstrong Custer. [/QUOTE] By the way it’s cavalry. Nothing to do with Jesus. 😃 I don’t know 100% about Duvall’s character (I think you are right) but Crandall was in the 7th. All cavalry units wear stetsons, not just air cav. Cavalry is not a separate branch, it is part of the armor branch. Some of the accoutrements are for both armor and cav. As an armor officer I earned my spurs. I never had a stetson since I was never in a cav unit. FTR cavalry officers tend to wear their stetsons everywhere, even when it shouldn’t be authorized just to piss people off. Sometimes they are called on it, sometimes not. It is not unusual to see a table full off cav officers at some formal function in dress blues and stetsons. ---
**Author:** ![pretend\_my\_name\_is\_witty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@pretend\_my\_name\_is\_witty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pretend_my_name_is_witty)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/22 "2007-02-27T15:16:42Z")
British Army here, I know it’s different but these rules tend not to be a million miles apart. You never wear your headdress just kicking about inside (Well, inside most buildings, certainly any military ones or churches etc\*. Nipping into a supermarket for a PSI near bases, I’ve been told conflicting advice). You’d always have it on in any formal ceremonial ceremony/parade. You shouldn’t salute without it on, so I guess that’s a reason why you keep it on for the ceremony, in addition to it just being part of your full uniform. \*Weird one there, for the army church services (now called non-denominational non-specific annual celebrations or something confusing like that), the girls are told to keep them on whilst the guys take them off. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/23 "2007-02-27T15:41:43Z")
Eh…the guy was just doing his job, nerve-wracking and dangerous as it was. To me it looks like he woke up that morning and chose between AWOL & court marshall or CMOH, and when things got nasty he made another choice: desertion or CMOH. Not to belittle what he actually _did_ do. I can’t say with any degree of certainty that I wouldn’t have just landed in a field of clover a few miles away and gone quietly bonkers, singing “Mary had a little lamb” for the next 40 years. Which leads to the GQ part: Really, what **less** could he have done that would have been considered “par” action? What did he do apart from be a Huey pilot in Vietnam that day? Oh, and if cav is armor, don’t the spurs get hung up inside the tank? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/24 "2007-02-27T16:35:37Z")
[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya] Eh…the guy was just doing his job, nerve-wracking and dangerous as it was. To me it looks like he woke up that morning and chose between AWOL & court marshall or CMOH, and when things got nasty he made another choice: desertion or CMOH. Not to belittle what he actually _did_ do. I can’t say with any degree of certainty that I wouldn’t have just landed in a field of clover a few miles away and gone quietly bonkers, singing “Mary had a little lamb” for the next 40 years. Which leads to the GQ part: Really, what **less** could he have done that would have been considered “par” action? What did he do apart from be a Huey pilot in Vietnam that day? Oh, and if cav is armor, don’t the spurs get hung up inside the tank? [/QUOTE] As many pilots did he could have attempted to land and then left without landing. As the pilot in command it would be up to him to determine if it was possible to go in without being shot down. Helicopter pilots are not trained to be kamikazees. Some pilots pushed it more than others. Those that pushed it beyond what would be expected of anyone should be recognized for it. Especially those who saved 70 of their fellow soldiers while doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/25 "2007-02-27T16:41:33Z")
Official Uniform Headgear worn indoors during a ceremony. Nothing odd about that. I do it at least once a month performing funeral honors at various churches, funeral homes, etc. As pointed out earlier in the thread, AR 670-1, para 1-10 _k_(2) specificly allows wear of headgear during ceremonies. It’s not only allowed, but it’s customary. He’s not wearing a John Deere hat or something. Oh, and guess what, he wont take it off during the National Anthem either. How rude! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/26 "2007-02-27T16:44:36Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] By the way it’s cavalry. Nothing to do with Jesus. 😃 [/QUOTE] I DO know that. :smack: It’s just one of those words I always mis-type, not doubt due to my Catholic upbringing. BTW, why are helicopters in this case part of armor? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/27 "2007-02-27T16:45:34Z")
[QUOTE=Bear\_Nenno] Official Uniform Headgear worn indoors during a ceremony. Nothing odd about that. I do it at least once a month performing funeral honors at various churches, funeral homes, etc. As pointed out earlier in the thread, AR 670-1, para 1-10 _k_(2) specificly allows wear of headgear during ceremonies. It’s not only allowed, but it’s customary. He’s not wearing a John Deere hat or something. Oh, and guess what, he wont take it off during the National Anthem either. How rude! [/QUOTE] On top of that he is retired. AR 670-1 covers retirees wearing their uniform and they are still held to its standards but there really is no way to enforce it. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/28 "2007-02-27T16:55:33Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] BTW, why are helicopters in this case part of armor? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure about this case, but every armored division includes mechanized infantry support groups. Maybe they have added helicopter units to keep up with the mobility of modern tanks. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/29 "2007-02-27T17:07:16Z")
Here is the [TO and E](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/toe/ad.htm) for an armored division. And here is what the [Aviation Brigate](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/toe/01300A100.htm)does. Such things as rapid transport of personnel and equipment, assault force, reconnaisance, etc. What I think is notable about the modern armored division is that it appears to include only two tank battalions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/30 "2007-02-27T17:07:53Z")
From the linked article: > [@](#): > > On November 15, 1965, a battalion of soldiers was ordered to attack North Vietnamese troops in the Ia Drang Valley in the central highlands of South Vietnam. It would be the first major battle between the U.S. and North Vietnamese armies and one of the first uses of helicopters to insert troops into battle quickly. > > Crandall flew the lead helicopter into the attack at Landing Zone X-Ray. The 450 American soldiers soon were surrounded by a much larger force of experienced North Vietnamese troops. During one landing, three men on Crandall’s helicopter were killed and three others were wounded. > > “As we came in, across the trees, the enemy was there and in the landing zone. I had my crew chief shot through the throat,” Crandall said recently. “I could see the people shooting at me from, just off the left of my rotor blades.” > > But he couldn’t shoot back because his helicopter didn’t have the M60 machine guns that later would become standard equipment on the UH-1 “Huey” that Crandall flew. > > In spite of the danger, Crandall flew into X-Ray more than 18 times to bring in ammunition and bring out the wounded. > > “It was the longest day I ever experienced in any aircraft,” Crandall said. > > He had to switch helicopters several times because of damage from enemy fire. > > “When an aircraft got hit in those times, we would use duct tape to cover the holes, and the purpose of covering the holes was so you knew what was a new hole and what was an old one that had been inspected,” he said. > > Crandall and his wingman, Ed “Too Tall” Freeman, saved 70 wounded soldiers that day. The GQ on this has already been answered. The wearing of the cover was ceremonially proper, but even if it hadn’t been, I’m with **Loach** on this one. The Colonel could have received his medal buck naked in a Batman mask if he felt like it, as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/31 "2007-02-27T17:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Here is the [TO and E](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/toe/ad.htm) for an armored division. And here is what the [Aviation Brigate](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/toe/01300A100.htm)does. Such things as rapid transport of personnel and equipment, assault force, reconnaisance, etc. What I think is notable about the modern armored division is that it appears to include only two tank battalions. [/QUOTE] You read it incorrectly. There are two armor _brigades_ each containing two battalions of armor and one mechinized infantry battalion. It also has one brigade of mech infantry containing 2 infantry battalions and one armor battalion. Usually there is some cavalry assests too but that might be attached to the corps level. Editing to say that the current form of the 1st Cavalry Division is completely different than it was in 1965. Then it was the test bed for Air Cav tactics. It was closer to what the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) is now. Now (or at least when I was in the 1st Cav a few years ago) the 1st Cav is Cav in name only. It is an armor heavy division, 3 brigades of armor and no mech infantry brigade. There are some mech infantry battalions but no brigade. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/32 "2007-02-27T18:50:44Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] You read it incorrectly. There are two armor _brigades_ each containing two battalions of armor and one mechinized infantry battalion. It also has one brigade of mech infantry containing 2 infantry battalions and one armor battalion.. [/QUOTE] OK, In any case, the answer to **Colibri’s** question is that there is a considerable amount of helicopter support in an armored division. And I would suspect in all combat divisions these days. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770/33 "2007-02-27T19:03:58Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] OK, In any case, the answer to **Colibri’s** question is that there is a considerable amount of helicopter support in an armored division. And I would suspect in all combat divisions these days. [/QUOTE] Cavalry is still used in the traditional roles of guard, screen and cover missions. Air and ground cav work hand in hand. Each division has at least a battalion of Apaches because they are the most effective tank killers around. There is also Uh-60s for logistical support and medevac. Some of these assets are controlled at the corps level but many are at the division level. This is true for armor as well as infantry and airborne divisions. FTR before I went armor in the national guard I was in an AH-1 Cobra Attack Helicopter Battalion in a Mech Infantry division (8th ID) then I went to an Apache unit in the 1st Cavalry Division. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam-war-hero-gets-medal-of-honor-but-keeps-hat-on-wtf/393770.md?page=1)