# Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868 "2002-05-26T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/1 "2002-05-26T02:32:10Z")
Allright, get out on the campus again, pick up that sign, do you remember where you put those anti-war buttons? Was it really worth the loss of thousands of American lives to prevent the spread of Communism? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/2 "2002-05-26T02:37:10Z")
I have just two questions: 1. _Was_ that our goal? 2. _Did_ we accomplish that goal? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/3 "2002-05-26T02:40:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clayton\_e \* > \*\*Allright, get out on the campus again, pick up that sign, do you remember where you put those anti-war buttons? > > Was it really worth the loss of thousands of American lives to prevent the spread of Communism? \*\* I suppose we could ask the South Koreans. Marc ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/4 "2002-05-26T02:45:22Z")
I’d have to say that that was our only semi-understandable given reason for joining the war, we lost the war, but Communism went into “self containment” after that with the eventual fall of the U.S.S.R. pretty much shutting down any new attempts to spread Communism. I don’t think Nam had much effect on our fight against Communism, if anything it helped Communism. Economic reasons really caused the fall of the spread of Communism (not Communism itself i.e. China or less signifigantly Cuba). Any other ideas? ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/5 "2002-05-26T03:05:04Z")
If by **We** you mean the United States of America, then no, **we** did not lose the Vietnam War. The South Vietnamese Army and South Vietnam lost the Vietnam War. most of the American troops were pulled out by the time it all went horribly bad in 1975. Besides, we **won** the war. Nixon said so, back in 1973, with that whole **Peace with Honor** bullshit of his and Kissengers. I look at it this way, having US troops over there fighting only put off the inevitable at a cost of 100,000’s of lives both US & others. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/6 "2002-05-26T03:16:11Z")
clayton: I spent the past Sunday with about 200 people who are quite glad that our country prevented the communist North Vietnam from taking over their county for as long as we did. They’re free and living in a free country. No doubt they have a different point of view than yours. Many also feel that our country abandoned theirs and did not honour our treaty obligation to them. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/7 "2002-05-26T04:35:36Z")
Unfortunately I was not able to find a link to the comic online, but there was a Doonesbury strip some years back in which one of the main characters, a Vietnam veteran, returned to Saigon. As he was being driven to his hotel, he remarked on the Pepsi logos, McDonalds, et cetera that he saw on the streets. His in-country friend replied, “Yeah. We won the war after all.” ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/8 "2002-05-26T04:50:37Z")
Wars are hardly ever really ‘won’, are they. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/9 "2002-05-26T10:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WSLer \* > \*\*If by **We** you mean the United States of America, then no, **we** did not lose the Vietnam War. The South Vietnamese Army and South Vietnam lost the Vietnam War. most of the American troops were pulled out by the time it all went horribly bad in 1975. > > \*\* Ah, so _this_ is sarcasm. At least, I hope so. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/10 "2002-05-26T12:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > > 1. _Was_ that our goal? > 2. _Did_ we accomplish that goal? Stopping the spead of Communism certainly was our goal. In particular, stopping its spread into Vietnam, into South East Asia, and worldwide. We failed to accomplish the first, may have partially accomplished the second, and eventually accomplished the 3rd, except for PRC, North Korea, and Cuba. Would we have ended Communism worldwide without Vietnam? I don’t know. Why look back at the Cold War by focusing on its most unsuccessful bit? ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/11 "2002-05-26T12:49:11Z")
It has to be sarcasm Latro… right? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/12 "2002-05-26T12:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clayton\_e \* > \*\*Was it really worth the loss of thousands of American lives to > prevent the spread of Communism? \*\* And two million Vietnamese lives, that strangely enough are sunk in oblivion most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/13 "2002-05-26T15:04:48Z")
good morning friends, i was jailed four times protesting that war. IMHO, we had no business there, and 58,191 americans lost their lives in support of one corrupt south vietnamese government after another. did these brave american soldiers stop the world wide spread of communism? i don’t believe that to be true. saigon fell, vietnam was united under a communist government. it was inevitable. our leaders sent americans to die in a lost cause. robert s mcnamara, secretary of defense under mr. kennedy and mr. johnson wrote [in retrospect](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679767495/qid=1022421868/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-9442604-4077519) reading this will give you a more accurate picture of just what our objectives were. on july 21, 1965 secretary mcnamara sent a report to mr. johnson: > [@](#): > > I then reviewed the three alternatives we had examined so many times before: (1) withdraw under the best conditions obtainable–almost certainly meaning something close to unconditional surrender; (2) continue at the present level–almost certainly forcing us into option 1 later; or (3) expand our forces to meet Westy’s request\*, while launching a vigerous effort to open negotiations–almost certainly staving off near-term defeat but also increasing the difficulty and cost of withdrawal later. > > I was drivin to Option 3, which I considered “prerequisite to the achievment of any acceptable settlement.” I ended by expressing my judgment that “the course of action recommended in this memorandum–if the military and political moves are properly integrated and executed with continuing vigor and visible determination–stands a good chance of achieving an acceptable outcome within a reasonable time.” Subsequent events proved my judgment wrong. (Robert S. McNamara, In Retrospect pg204) - General Westmorland’s Request in a cable sent to the Pentagon on June 17, 1965: > [@](#): > > The conflict in Southeast Asia is in the process of moving to a higher level. Some PAVN (North Vietnamese) forces have entered SVN (South Vietnam) and more may well be on the way. So far the VC have not employed their full capabilities in this cam[paign ARVN (South Vietnamese Army) forces on the other hand are already expeiencing difficulty in coping with this increased VC capacity. Desertion rates are inordinately high. Battle losses have been higher than expected…As a result, ARVN troops are beggining to show signs of reluctance to assume the offensive and in some cases their staedfastness under fire is coming into doubt…The force ratios continue to change in favor of the VC…The GVN cannot stand up successfully to this kind of pressure without reinforcement…I see no course of action open to us except to reinforce our efforts in SVN with additional U.S. of third country forces as rapidly as is practical during the critical weeks ahead…The basic purpose of the additional deployments recommended is to give us a substantial and hard hitting offensive capability on the ground to convince the VC that they cannot win. (Robert S. McNamara, In Retrospect pgs 187, 188) ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/14 "2002-05-26T19:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\* > > Ah, so _this_ is sarcasm. > At least, I hope so. \*\* No, it’s something called “truth,” which is a damn rare commodity these days. Praytell, whatever gave you the idea that I was being sarcastic? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/15 "2002-05-26T20:06:20Z")
Hmm, so the BEF actually won the battle for France against the Germans.It was the French that lost, the British just boarded a couple of boats, at Dunkirk, before they were actually defeated. Napoleon didn’t loose the 1812 campaign, he just felt like going home. Come off it, the U.S. went home, they ran and left the South Vietnamese to the mercy of the North. ---
**Author:** ![Jeu\_D\_esprit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@Jeu\_D\_esprit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeu_D_esprit)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/16 "2002-05-27T14:34:46Z")
People have a habit of seperating the military and political sides of an armed conflict. They see military victory as the only measure of a conflict, and let there be no doubt: the US armed forces won. However, politically, Vietnam could hardly have been a worse loss for the US. Support was started out of paranoia and posturing under Truman and ended under the paranoia and corruption of the Nixon administration. Every presidential administration in between compounded the mistakes of the past and usually added pearls of their own. I leave it to the Vietnamese people to decide if their millions of people lost was worth it. I honor their dead as I honor our own. However let me make my stance clear: The US never had any business funding the French, ignoring international agreements, not allowing the electorial will of the Vietnamese people, making the communists in northern Vietnam more powerful by militarily occupying the south, proping up puppet regimes, and any number of other stupid political actions taken during the conflict. Quite simple really. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/17 "2002-05-27T14:50:08Z")
O.K. then. Please explain how the Vietnam war was won by the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/18 "2002-05-27T15:48:46Z")
J: The communist government certainly considers the loss of life worth it as they won and part of their strategy was "as many sacrifices as it takes. See my post above to see what the citizens of the South thought. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/19 "2002-05-27T16:06:44Z")
The North Vietnamese government is seen way too communist. Sure, Ho CHi Minh was a communist, but he didn’t dream of spreading the World Revolution. His policy was more nationalist Vietnamese, and that’s what American strategy at the time misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/20 "2002-05-27T18:48:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Schnitte \* > **Sure, Ho CHi Minh was a communist, but he didn’t dream of spreading the World Revolution. His policy was more nationalist Vietnamese…** The communist insurgents in both Laos and Cambodia were completely dependent on the North Vietnamese. Ho Chi Minhs idea of nationalism was a greater Indochinese empire under Vietnamese rule. Quote: “The Vietnamese Party reserves the right to supervise the activities of its brother parties in Cambodia and Laos…later, if conditions permit, the three revolutionary Parties of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos will be able to unite to form a single Party…” from a document released by the Indochinese Communist Party, Second National Congress. [QUOTE] \*\* > [@](#): > > …and that’s what American strategy at the time misunderstood. \*\* I believe the U.S. understood Hos intentions perfectly well. But I’ll agree with you that our strategy did not take those intentions into account. There was virtually no way we could limit the fighting to South Vietnam when the enemy was active in all of Indochina. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868.md?page=2)