# Vietnam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868 "2002-05-26T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2002, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/61 "2002-05-29T23:56:25Z")
People people we are discussing vietnam. Don’t hijack the thread? (I always wanted to be a moderator, unfortunately I never passed the exam) ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/62 "2002-05-30T01:51:00Z")
What about the bombings of Laos and Cambodia? Nixon was attempting Vietnamization at the same time he was bombing these countries because of the belief they were harboring Communist supporters. If we hadn’t bombed them would they have resisted Communism rather than turning to it shortly after we left (an analogy could be made to the Bay of Pigs invasion and Cuba)? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/63 "2002-05-30T02:38:45Z")
clayton\_e: While I think the Vietnam War was a mistake, I think it is pretty well documented, in Karnow’s “Vietnam” among other sources, that Vietcong and North Vietnamese forces did use Cambodia and Laos for bases; hell, part of the Ho Chi Minh ran through Laos and/or Cambodia if I remember a map correctly. Nixon’s bombing of those countries may have been a stupid move, but there were legitimate reasons for it. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/64 "2002-05-30T09:51:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*Perhaps the reason the US didn’t use nukes is because there are certain things the US feels morally constrained not to do, even if, from a utilitarian standpoint, they would serve US interests. Or maybe because it would have raised outright indignation by the rest of the world, losing every possible kind of support? Not even the single remaining superpower could afford that. Bush’s recently published lists of nations that could possibly be attacked with nuclear microdevices shows moral doubts against nuclear weaponry are not the major issue to his administration. > [@](#): > > I “must” concede nothing. Provide me with specific examples, and I will agree or disagree (and you would very likely be surprised at what I would agree with; I am very critical of US foreign policy.) Specific examples can be found in any of the anti-US threads running or having run on the SDMB (and I’d suggest we outsource this debate to one of them; the Vietnam debaters are getting irate methinks). A couple of keywords (although I believe you know pretty well what I mean, since you don’t deny the possibility of you disagreeing altogether): Kyoto. The internationa criminal court. ABM Treaty. Steel tariffs. > [@](#): > > 1. What are “clean airstrikes”? I’ve never heard of them. We were talking earlier about “surgical airstrikes.” > 2. What do you mean “don’t work”? Do they wholly avoid civilian casualties? Of course not… Do they cause less civilian casualties than an indiscriminate bombing campaign? Of course they do, and that’s all they are intended to do. > 3. What myth? As far as I can tell, you are the only person who was ever informed that surgical airstrikes don’t ever kill civilians. If an agent of the US government was the one who informed you of that, I apologize for the misunderstanding on the part of the American people. The term “clean airstrikes” pretty much means what it says. Since you didn’t contradict my “dirty wars” statement, I suppose you know what a dirty war is, and a clean one is the opposite. One in which the civilian population remains unharmed. I know that realistically no war can avoid hitting civilians altogether, and I know efforts have been made not to hit them more than necessary. Yet I think official statements keep on creating the impression that US airstrikes, in the Gulf War as well as the Kosovo (where German troups were involved as well and used exactly the same way of argumentation; you still remember NATO’s series of statements about that refugee treck allegedly bombed by Serbians?) or the Afghanistan one. Was that myth ever propagated by official sources? Maybe not explicitly (although I’d not be surprised if it were so - do you insist on me searching for quotes?), but I might quote from [this page](http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/faculty/kellner/papers/gulfwar4.htm), about a press briefing during the Gulf War. Will do that as a first quote? > [@](#): > > The highlight of the briefing, however, was technology as Horner turned on his videos to demonstrate precision bombing at work. The world was treated to videos of Air Force F-111 fighter bombers using laser-guided bombs to destroy an Iraqi airfield runway and a suspected storage bunker for Scud missiles. Horner then presented a video of a F-117 Stealth fighter bomber dropping its load down the air shaft of Iraqi air defense headquarters. Finally, Horner showed a Stealth bomber dumping another smart bomb into the Iraqi air force headquarters, destroying the building. > > These videos were replayed for days, producing the image of a precise bombing and coding the destruction as positive. Norm Schwarzkopf’s video cassette shows demonstrated that U.S. bombs always hit their targets, do not cause collateral damage, and only take out nasty military targets. This was intended to change the public perception of war itself, that the new technowar was clean, precise, and surgical, that the very nature of war had changed. No need to apologize for anything, btw. And I don’t have any stereotypes against Americans altogether - there nice fellas, personally. I just don’t like the way their government is doing foreign politics, but that’s a different affair. > [@](#): > > Hate to disappoint you, son, but to most Americans, the US casualties are also simply statistics. Walking around the office on days when it was reported that US servicemen or women died in Afghanistan, I didn’t notice anyone wearing black or wailing or gnashing their teeth. > No doubt the friends and relatives of US casualties mourned their losses, and no doubt selfishly :rolleyes: didn’t take the time to mourn Afghani casualties. But your beef is with them, not with the US as a whole. I got a different impression - I’ve seen more than nothing of public mourning for them (when comparing different US TV channels, Fox News seemed to be eager in this), and there were,. incidentally, several posts here on the Boards commemorating the brave soldiers who fell in the fight. Which doesn’t mean you’re not supposed to mourn for them at all (I can’t say that often enough); but a short thought of innocent Afghan victims can’t be too hard. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/65 "2002-05-30T14:23:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Was that myth ever propagated by official sources? Maybe not explicitly (although I’d not be surprised if it were so - do you insist on me searching for quotes?), but I might quote from this page, about a press briefing during the Gulf War. Will do that as a first quote? Jesu Christo, **schnitte.** You assert that the US has been propogating a myth that its airstrikes don’t kill civilians. In “support” of that assertion, you provide a link to a propangandist who asserts that the US is propogating a myth that its airstrikes don’t kill civilians. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Hate to disappoint you, son, but to most Americans, the US casualties are also simply statistics. Walking around the office on days when it was reported that US servicemen or women died in Afghanistan, I didn’t notice anyone wearing black or wailing or gnashing their teeth. > No doubt the friends and relatives of US casualties mourned their losses, and no doubt selfishly didn’t take the time to mourn Afghani casualties. But your beef is with them, not with the US as a whole. > > * * * > > I got a different impression - I’ve seen more than nothing of public mourning for them (when comparing different US TV channels, Fox News seemed to be eager in this), and there were,. incidentally, several posts here on the Boards commemorating the brave soldiers who fell in the fight. Your arrogance is amazing. Because you watch some American television and have seen some posts on an American message board, and you know what Americans are doing. These boards - how many posts have you read mourning US casualties? “several”, hmm? How many posts do you think there have been since the war in Afghanistan started? Several thousand perhaps? And I thought innumeracy was an American problem. News - If the news were representative of what’s really going on in the US, I would have caught AIDS four times over, been molested by 13 priests, and had my apartment burned to the ground once a month. Fox News picks and chooses, and dramatizes, events that it thinks will get more viewers. From its miniscule starting point, their strategy works, but overall, Fox News is an insignificant news source to the American people. The most recent ratings I could find for Fox News (from March) found that Fox News has 1.21 million prime-time viewers. Out of a nation of 270 million people. So, you are basing your views on how Americans think and feel from a news source that earns its money by dramatizing and exaggerating events, and which the overwhelming majority of Americans don’t bother to watch. Brilliant. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/66 "2002-05-30T15:47:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Jesu Christo, schnitte. You assert that the US has been propogating a myth that its airstrikes don’t kill civilians. In “support” of that assertion, you provide a link to a propangandist who asserts that the US is propogating a myth that its airstrikes don’t kill civilians. And you’re basically saying the US has never been propagating that myth because everybody who says they did is a propagandist who claims something wrong. On that level, all discussion becomes useless because we’ll simply doubt everything the other one is saying. Brilliant too. > [@](#): > > So, you are basing your views on how Americans think and feel from a news source that earns its money by dramatizing and exaggerating events, and which the overwhelming majority of Americans don’t bother to watch. If I created the impression of being arrogant, I apologize, but since I can’t read anybody’s mind I can’t choose but have to rely upon the media - including American media - in order to get information. Is there anything wrong in this? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/67 "2002-05-30T18:19:09Z")
> [@](#): > > And you’re basically saying the US has never been propagating that myth because everybody who says they did is a propagandist who claims something wrong. On that level, all discussion becomes useless because we’ll simply doubt everything the other one is saying. Again, where the hell did that come from? I said that the article you linked was self-evidently skewed. Tell ya what - give me an article from _Der Spiegel_ supporting your assertion, and I’ll acknowledge your point. > [@](#): > > _by Schnitte_ > If I created the impression of being arrogant, I apologize, but since I can’t read anybody’s mind I can’t choose but have to rely upon the media - including American media - in order to get information. Is there anything wrong in this? Yes, everything. If I were to solely rely upon the news media - including German media - to form my impressions of your country, I’d be very likely to conclude that you are a nation of xenophobes, whose citizens like to spend Saturday night beating up Turks, that your third largest party (the FDP has passed the Greens in opinion polls, right?) is a bunch of raving anti-Semitic loons, that the chancellor candidate for your conservative part(ies) - who stands a good chance of winning - is a drunken Catholic bigot, your high school kids love to shoot each other, etc., etc. Because those stories get the biggest play. The media - particularly the broadcast media - is fine for taking snapshots of narrowly-focused moments in time. The snapshots, however, are almost exclusively of the more sensationalistic events. And relying on the broadcast media could lead to the conclusion that the abnormal is the norm. Almost by definition, only the abnormal gets on the news - otherwise, it wouldn’t be “news”; it wouldn’t be worth reporting. Which is why I, before casting judgment on an entire society, tend to learn more in depth about the _norms_ of that society. Sua ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/68 "2002-05-30T19:54:07Z")
Can’t believe I didn’t add this one concerning perceptions of Germany gleaned from the media. “and that the German people are so idiotic that they would elect a leader shallow enough to threaten to sue people if they claim he dyes his hair.” (What is the deal with that, anyway?) Sua ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/69 "2002-05-31T09:25:51Z")
You wouldn’t even guess too wrong with that assumption. I completely agree with you that Stoiber is something of a bigot, the FDP has made not too clever statements, and Schröder is way too much obsessed with his profile in the media than he should be. While media covergae does, of course, not tell you _everything_ about a nation’s mind, you can’t state it doesn’t tell you anything. At least it gives you something of a general trend. If it were different, there wouldn’t be any sense in the media at all. But you asked for Spiegel articles. Then, here we go. [Here’s](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,164785,00.html) an interview discussing the legality of the Afghanistan war the way it was fought. [This](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,165566,00.html) Spiegel analysis explicitly contains the author’s opinion that the war was not the kind of surgical strikes US military officials had announced at its beginning. A pretty anti-American [essay](http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/literatur/0,1518,165236,00.html) not even I agree with in all points, but then again it was published in Der Spiegel. And finally a [history](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,161529,00.html) of misinformation and propaganda carried out during various wars. Are those links more acceptable for you than the one by this Columbia guy? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/70 "2002-05-31T12:31:05Z")
Since when have we forgotten civvie casualties? They were on every politician’s lips for a while. But we had to do it, and we did as cleanly as a war has ever been done before. You assume too much. And you then call _us_ arrogant. Guess which one of us I think is being a jerk now? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/71 "2002-05-31T13:28:11Z")
“and we did as cleanly as a war has ever been done before”. Now it’s you who’s assuming quite a bit, because that’s exactly what the discussion (we really should outsource it somewhere else IMHO) is about. You might want to follow the entire debate that’s been turning around this point. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/72 "2002-05-31T14:08:53Z")
**schnitte,** I admit my German is a little rusty, but I didn’t see anything in any of your links in which the US government asserted that its airstrikes don’t cause civilian casualties. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/73 "2002-05-31T17:19:33Z")
My understanding is that the “Amerika in der Afghanistan-Falle” (“America in the Afghanistan trap”`) one implies exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2002, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/74 "2002-06-01T07:29:37Z")
Schnitte: What brand of logic are you using? Nowhere has our government asserted, implied, hinted, nor even lied, that the airstrikes haven’t caused civilian casualties. The airstrikes by the allied forces, unlike the terrorist attacks, do not target civilians. The airstrikes target those who are engaged in the attacks on America. The civilian casualties are not only regrettable, but are also regretted by America’s government. The same cannot be said of the civilian casualties caused by the terrorists. Get off your “hate America” wagon and you’ll, just maybe, understand what’s going on in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2002, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/75 "2002-06-01T10:44:14Z")
Don’t you grasp I DON’T hate America? I just don’t agree with US foreign policy, and Jesus I’m not the only one to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/76 "2002-06-01T14:28:13Z")
Lot of people in America don’t agree with US foreign policy, either, Schnitte. Your postings indicate that you do hate America itself. Can’t you grasp your own postings? ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/77 "2002-06-01T14:41:41Z")
If you want to see a German who really hates America, Monty, I could name you someone else. When talking to him, I usually speak for the US; that guy really has an anti-US attitude (the Manhattan Project was illegal because Germany never ran a bomb program; all rumors it did were lies brought into circulation by Us military to justify the project; etc). I don’t hate America, really; I’ve been to the US twice myself, and I loved it. And I don’t want to convert you either; all I want you to do is accept that a certain anti-American attitude in politics is not a dumbass thing but something there are reasons for. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2002, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/78 "2002-06-01T16:14:47Z")
And all I want you to do is consider how those in your audience will consider your comments. I’ve lived in Germany, also, and have seen some really “out there” anti-US and even anti-German government malarkey. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/79 "2002-06-01T16:22:50Z")
Well, if you don’t share my opinion, that’s up to you, but that’s the point of a Great Debate. If we all agree with each other, it’d be dull. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868/80 "2002-06-02T04:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\* I just hate the fact that people seem to think, in general, that the US military failed in Vietnam, which isn’t the case. They simply kicked a whole lot of ass. Unfortunately, Congress didn’t have the will to give them objectives that would help actually win the war. \*\* :rolleyes: So you say we were perfectly prepared for jungle combat? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnam/110868.md?page=5)