# Vietnamese alphabet -- reason for use of "ph" instead of "f"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207 "2007-03-16T15:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/1 "2007-03-16T15:11:04Z")
Wikipedia gives [this much](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_alphabet): > [@](#): > > “PH” is pronounced /f/, as in English “ **Ph** ilip”. (Vietnamese “PH” is never pronounced like English “P” or Hindi “PH”.) (Oddly, “P” without “H” is found only in foreign words, and “F” is not used in Vietnamese despite “PH” being pronounced /f/ rather than /p[sup]h[/sup]/. This seems to be due to historical reasons.) So … are those historical reasons known? Was it perhaps a singular excutive decision of Alexandre de Rhodes (the Jesuit missionary who codified the modern Vietnamese alphabet), with _his_ reasoning being lost to time? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/2 "2007-03-16T16:15:50Z")
Just guessing here, but I suspect the reason has to do with the fact that we have “ph” at all in Western languages for the “f” sound. Misplaced classicism on de Rhodes’ part, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/3 "2007-03-16T17:13:56Z")
There’s been a recent thread that included some comments on Vietnamese notation, though I don’t remember if it was the OP. The transliteration into Roman alphabet was, as I understand it, the development of a single person, so it’s idiosyncratic. Chinese characters were used historically and concurrently until reasonably recently. The vowels have lots of diacritical marks. Tones are marked with additional diacriticals, so you get marked vowels with marked tones. I find it hard to read 10-point Vietnamese text without my glasses. Ho Chi Minh did not like the transliteration and found it “fussy.” Apparently he would not use some of the markers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/4 "2007-03-16T17:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Just guessing here, but I suspect the reason has to do with the fact that we have “ph” at all in Western languages for the “f” sound. [/QUOTE] Not in Spanish, which uses essentially phonetic (_fonética_) spelling. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/5 "2007-03-17T00:48:05Z")
Is the sound represented by “ph” in Vietnamese the same as a western “f”? And if it is was it not when it was being transliterated. I could imagine that it was close but distinctly different from the French pronunciation (which I assume is what de Rhodes spoke), and so got a different treatment. Another possibility is that it was a different sound in the distant past and so that was taken into account. Or, it just occurs to me, there may have been other dialects with a distinct "ph"sound. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/6 "2007-03-17T01:04:44Z")
P without H is not found only in foreign words in Vietnamese. Here are two examples: > [@](#): > > -de.p = beautiful > lo+.p = to cover, to roof Now, if they’re talking about p without h at the beginning of a word, then that’s quite likely true. The reasoning’s not lost to time. Although the codifier was French, there were also Portuguese missionaries working with him. So, the alphabet ended up with a mixture of French and Portuguese influences. There’s also the issue of voiceless stops in Vietnamese and historical change in pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/7 "2007-03-17T17:07:57Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] P without H is not found only in foreign words in Vietnamese. [/QUOTE] That’s really only true at the beginning of words, for example _pin_, meaning a battery. There are plenty of true Vietnamese words that end in p, including your two examples. The Latin-based alphabet for Vietnamese was developed by Christian missionaries, mostly Portuguese, and codified by the French missionary Alexander de Rhodes with his 1651 publication of a Vietnamese-Latin-Portuguese dictionary. The system is now called “Quốc Ngữ”, or national language. According to “A Concise Vietnamese Grammar” (Đòan Thiện Thuật, 2001), “Quốc Ngữ was invented to meet the need of Westerners. So, nowadays, there are many elements in the language which are hard to understand and unnecessary.” It gives some examples for improvement, “‘ph’ should be replaced by ‘f’, ‘d’ and ‘gi’ by ‘z’; ‘ngh’ should be deleted so that only ‘ng’ remains.” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/8 "2007-03-17T17:25:57Z")
[QUOTE=Greg Charles] According to “A Concise Vietnamese Grammar” (Đòan Thiện Thuật, 2001), "Quốc Ngữ was invented to meet the need of Westerners. [/QUOTE] That may well be the case … but using “ph” for the voiceless labiodental fricative is not a “need of Westerners”. Indeed, that comment would make more sense if de Rhodes’ scheme did, in fact, use “f”. **Sal Ammoniac’s** and **Shoshana’s** comments, while speculative, may well be fairly close to the mark – perhaps it _was_ a stylistic choice on de Rhodes’ part. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/9 "2007-03-17T18:35:46Z")
> [@](#): > > ‘d’ and ‘gi’ by ‘z’ Written by a Northern Vietnamese author? In the south, these would be replaced by “y.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/10 "2007-03-18T06:16:03Z")
**Gregg** : Did you not read the part of my posting you quoted, or perhaps you missed seeing a word in it? **Shoshana** : And depending on what part of the South the writer’s from, they may even replace the V with a Y. And the tone marks would be a real nightmare to replace as there are fewer tones in the southern dialect than in the northern. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/11 "2007-03-18T06:57:17Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] **Gregg** : Did you not read the part of my posting you quoted, or perhaps you missed seeing a word in it? [/QUOTE] Ah, sorry, I did miss the “not” in your post, much as you missed the correct spelling of Greg. 🙂 Yes, the author is of course from the north. However, the Southerners, while generally scornful of Northerners, usually do say that they pronounce the language correctly. The big point is that there is no need for both “d” and “gi” since they are the same (as each other) in all accents. As for “v”, not even Southerners that pronounce it as “y” think they are pronouncing it right. They’ll usually correct themselves if pushed. For that matter Hanoians pronounce “r” as “z”, but will correct it to a rolling r if pressed. It’s a good point that Mr. Thuat’s explanation begs the question of why ph instead of f. (Am I using beg the question right? That still confuses me.) I can say that younger Vietnamese often substitute f for ph … sort of Vietnamese leet. Also, phường, meaning a district of a town, is almost always abbreviated as F. I think we need some more research. I volunteer to lead a team over to the country. I know some great restaurants and clubs. We could, um, ask there. Lots of Vietnamese to ask. Could we get funding? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/12 "2007-03-18T14:10:34Z")
[QUOTE=Greg Charles] Ah, sorry, I did miss the “not” in your post, much as you missed the correct spelling of Greg. 🙂 [/quote] Cu~ng ddu+o+.c. > [@](#): > > Yes, the author is of course from the north. However, the Southerners, while generally scornful of Northerners, usually do say that they pronounce the language correctly. The big point is that there is no need for both “d” and “gi” since they are the same (as each other) in all accents. As for “v”, not even Southerners that pronounce it as “y” think they are pronouncing it right. They’ll usually correct themselves if pushed. For that matter Hanoians pronounce “r” as “z”, but will correct it to a rolling r if pressed. You’re touching upon socio-linguistic issues here, to wit: prestige dialects. Another interesting thing about the Vietnamese script is that it is, essentially, an incredible example of compromise. Think of how the consonants are pronounced in TPHCM and of the tones in Ha` No^.i and you’ll see what I’m getting at. > [@](#): > > It’s a good point that Mr. Thuat’s explanation begs the question of why ph instead of f. (Am I using beg the question right? That still confuses me.) I can say that younger Vietnamese often substitute f for ph … sort of Vietnamese leet. Also, phường, meaning a district of a town, is almost always abbreviated as F. Some abbreviations (or shorthand?) are a bit easier to grok than others. I give you O for _kho^ng_ as an example. > [@](#): > > I think we need some more research. I volunteer to lead a team over to the country. I know some great restaurants and clubs. We could, um, ask there. Lots of Vietnamese to ask. Could we get funding? Sign me up! (For traveling, not as a source for funds.) ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/13 "2007-03-18T17:24:38Z")
Me, too! > [@](#): > > there are fewer tones in the southern dialect than in the northern. Which tones are omitted in the south? I was taught 6 by a teacher from HCM, but she might have been being scrupulous. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2007, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/14 "2007-03-19T02:35:19Z")
Your teacher was teaching you either (a) the prestige dialect of Hanoi or (b) the tone marks for orthography (or, of course, both). Although the Southern dialect has fewer tones, they still write the words as though they had the same tones as the North. When I was doing a project report for a phonetics class in university, I asked a friend who is a native of South Vietnam to help me with it. I had her reading a list of words comparing tones and recorded her voice. When we got to one page, she looked at me and said, “Oh, no! I pronounce these tones the same way!” It was my fault for not paying attention to the text as I was busy with the recording program (bit more complicated than your average tape player). I think it was ~ and ? tones but can’t remember at the moment. Another issue is that the ending consonants are prounced somewhat differently in the South than in the North. The only example I can recall right now is _nh_ as in _anh_. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/15 "2007-03-20T06:29:35Z")
Yes, it’s ~ (ngã) and ? (hỏi) that the Southerners munge together, although many swear to me that they pronounce them a _little_ differently. I can’t hear it. The nh sound at the end of words is different in Hanoi and Saigon. Also Hanoians distinguish ending c and t from each other better than in Saigon. However, initial tr and ch are almost the same in the North, but easily distinguished in the South. Then there are the people that switch l and n, and the ones that pronounce r like g. It’s a constant challenge. Fun though! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2007, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vietnamese-alphabet-reason-for-use-of-ph-instead-of-f/396207/16 "2007-03-20T07:16:08Z")
In the standard Hanoi dialect, initial _tr_ and _ch_ are identical. As one nears the South, they tend to part ways. Here’s something I noticed from quite a lot of Vietnamese students at both my community college and my university: those from the North tended to pick up the Southern way of speaking once they immigrated to California.