# Viewing my own death through a pet fish's death **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377 "2008-11-25T03:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/21 "2008-11-25T18:26:10Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s an admirable trait to be certain. But that is still different from being comforted by the notion of non-existance. 😉 If we had an infinite lifespan, how precious would our lives be to us? The prospect of mortality is the greater motivator to get things done, to leave some sort of legacy that will echo into eternity. ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/22 "2008-11-25T18:27:35Z")
The death of your fish caused you to start a thread on a popular message board, and now several people from all over the world are talking about him/her. That is already more of an impact than most fish have on the world. Most aquarium fish are forgotten by the time the sound of the flushing has died down. And they are still doing better than most ‘wild’ fish, who do not have a single sentient entity to even notice their death, much less remember them afterwards. On the other hand, when you die, your death will probably have an impact on quite a few people, not just emotional but also practical (e.g. your colleagues will notice your absence because your work is no longer being done the way you did it). Twenty or thirty years later, people may still occasionally mention you in conversation. You were an integral part of a complex tapestry, and now that you are gone there’s a hole that will take a long time to disappear completely. That’s the difference. Other than that, yeah, your corpse is bigger. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/23 "2008-11-25T18:34:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What is amusing about this idea is it presupposes an intellectual elite capable of creating a complex control mechanism to control the rest of humanity in some great antiquity. Somebody thought up missionaries to spread the fear of God. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/24 "2008-11-25T18:34:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What is amusing about this idea is it presupposes an intellectual elite capable of creating a complex control mechanism to control the rest of humanity in some great antiquity. Religious leaders don’t neccesarily have to be intellectually elite. Being extremely charismatic is often enough. David Koresh is a pretty good example. He was a dyslexic high school dropout. But he was apparently very, very good at convincing people to believe what he told them. The results of his preaching are matter of public record (the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas.) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/25 "2008-11-25T18:44:04Z")
I disagee with Epicurus on one thing. I never thought there was awareness in death. I’m not afraid of death, I’m afraid of getting old and decrepit, and not being able to do the things I want. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/26 "2008-11-25T18:45:33Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If we had an infinite lifespan, how precious would our lives be to us? The prospect of mortality is the greater motivator to get things done, to leave some sort of legacy that will echo into eternity. Yes, I’ve heard this, but you say that not being immortal. It’s always rung somewhat hollow to me. Another among many beliefs used to make us feel more comfortable with death. Me, I’m comfortable not being comfortable with it. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/27 "2008-11-25T19:12:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, I’ve heard this, but you say that not being immortal. It’s always rung somewhat hollow to me. Another among many beliefs used to make us feel more comfortable with death. Me, I’m comfortable not being comfortable with it. After a few hundred years, I bet you’d be bored to tears with life. Probably even sooner than that. As the german philosopher Schopenhauer [wrote](http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/pessimism/chapter1.html) > [@Arthur Schopenhauer](#): > > He who lives to see two or three generations is like a man who sits some time in the conjurer’s booth at a fair, and witnesses the performance twice or thrice in succession. The tricks were meant to be seen only once; and when they are no longer a novelty and cease to deceive, their effect is gone. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/28 "2008-11-25T19:29:27Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Religious leaders don’t neccesarily have to be intellectually elite. Being extremely charismatic is often enough. David Koresh is a pretty good example. He was a dyslexic high school dropout. But he was apparently very, very good at convincing people to believe what he told them. The results of his preaching are matter of public record (the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas.) I would hesitate to say that David Koresh wasn’t a smart cookie. However, Branch Davidians are not going to endure. I guess the best contemporary example would probably be Joseph Smith who ripped off Masonry, and a contemporary Science Fiction novel. It’s one of the greatest arguments for ‘religion is a scam’. However, it built itself on the foundation of Christianity’s eternal salvation, and a respect for a Judeo-Protestant work ethic. So the people have been served by it. What is interesting to me is the idea that there was an elect Priesthood in the past that was able to dream up the great religions. Considering how difficult it is to write a good Sci Fi novel, that’s some rare talent. People like to use L. Ron Hubbard as an example, but he built his religion off of a foundation of Crowley, Jung and Freud. He had giants upon whose shoulders he could stand. The idea that there was an elect priesthood guiding humanity in some grand con is a pretty incredible claim in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/29 "2008-11-25T19:33:23Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > After a few hundred years, I bet you’d be bored to tears with life. Probably even sooner than that. As the german philosopher Schopenhauer [wrote](http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/pessimism/chapter1.html) Yeah but you are assuming a static end to growth. As though once you’re an adult that’s it. There are Taoist techniques that can increase one’s sensitivity to the world around them, Yoga techniques. You could spend a good century mastering Kung Fu, cultivating a sophisticated pallet and become a master chef. In two or three hundred years you could possibly spearhead the colonial expansion into the Solar System. Maybe Schopenhauer just lacked imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/30 "2008-11-25T20:11:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I would hesitate to say that David Koresh wasn’t a smart cookie. However, Branch Davidians are not going to endure. > > I guess the best contemporary example would probably be Joseph Smith who ripped off Masonry, and a contemporary Science Fiction novel. It’s one of the greatest arguments for ‘religion is a scam’. However, it built itself on the foundation of Christianity’s eternal salvation, and a respect for a Judeo-Protestant work ethic. So the people have been served by it. The origins of Christianity are somewhat obscure. It’s unlikely any authors of the gospels actually met Jesus. But just because we don’t have as much clear evidence of cynical narcissistic leaders making shit up to serve their own selfish purposes as we do with Mormonism, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It’s also possible they managed to convince themselves of their own bullshit. Doesn’t make it any less self serving, or less bullshit. > [@](#): > > What is interesting to me is the idea that there was an elect Priesthood in the past that was able to dream up the great religions. Considering how difficult it is to write a good Sci Fi novel, that’s some rare talent. People like to use L. Ron Hubbard as an example, but he built his religion off of a foundation of Crowley, Jung and Freud. He had giants upon whose shoulders he could stand. EVERYTHING is based upon some prior idea. Pick any author, or artist, or political philosophy. It probably had some earlier inspiration that was inspired by something else, and so on and so on back to the dawn of mankind. I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. > [@](#): > > The idea that there was an elect priesthood guiding humanity in some grand con is a pretty incredible claim in and of itself. I don’t know anybody claiming there was a grand conspiracy amongst all religious leaders. There were many different con games going on at the same time, many of which were mutually antagonistic. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/31 "2008-11-25T20:32:30Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The origins of Christianity are somewhat obscure. It’s unlikely any authors of the gospels actually met Jesus. That’s a claim with no basis whatsoever. The authors of the gospels are specifically people who knew him personally, the apostles. That just gets into ‘Jesus wasn’t even a real person.’ territory, which is probably one of the most full and uninteresting topics in modern times. Yes, I understand the epistemological problems with knowing that bit of history, but the same sort of thing applies to Shakespeare, maybe he didn’t really exist, maybe he was Francis Bacon. Who knows? > [@](#): > > But just because we don’t have as much clear evidence of cynical narcissistic leaders making shit up to serve their own selfish purposes as we do with Mormonism, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It’s also possible they managed to convince themselves of their own bullshit. Doesn’t make it any less self serving, or less bullshit. Perhaps. > [@](#): > > EVERYTHING is based upon some prior idea. Pick any author, or artist, or political philosophy. It probably had some earlier inspiration that was inspired by something else, and so on and so on back to the dawn of mankind. I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Right but there has to be some point of origin. A Hermes Trismegistus sort of character. Who was the first person to make up the notion? Where did it come from? I find biological notions of causation for the world’s religions where it is the natural phenomena rooted in our neurology, a la Daniel Dennett, to be a bit more credible than the notion that it was a series of cons. No doubt, there were cons along the way. It just seems to trite and pat to me. To each their own. It’s all speculation no matter what side you come down on. > [@](#): > > I don’t know anybody claiming there was a grand conspiracy amongst all religious leaders. There were many different con games going on at the same time, many of which were mutually antagonistic. That is certainly true. But at some point it made life more bearable, which is why people adopted it to begin with. Clearly a need was being filled. Though to be honest, I found the discussion of a mortal’s bias toward mortality as being a more thought provoking discussion than this one which always ends up with the same arguments being made and no one being convinced of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/32 "2008-11-25T20:57:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right but there has to be some point of origin. A Hermes Trismegistus sort of character. Who was the first person to make up the notion? The two most plausible explanations for religions starting is: (1) A person hallucinated something and truly believed it, and preached it to others. (2) A person just made crap up and got people to believe it. There are many different religions out there, and it’s probably a combination of (1) and (2). Possibly leaning more towards (1). Remember, we’re talking about the _founders_ of the religion, and not the followers. The vast majority of followers are true believers. But I’m not so confident that the leaders and founders lean so strongly towards the true believer camp. In Africa, there’s a folk belief that having sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. Who the hell started _that_? It really blows my mind to think of someone coming up with something like that. But there MUST have been a first person, or group of persons, who spread that particular meme. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/33 "2008-11-25T21:03:02Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The two most plausible explanations for religions starting is: (1) A person hallucinated something and truly believed it, and preached it to others. (2) A person just made crap up and got people to believe it. There are many different religions out there, and it’s probably a combination of (1) and (2). Possibly leaning more towards (1). > > Remember, we’re talking about the _founders_ of the religion, and not the followers. The vast majority of followers are true believers. But I’m not so confident that the leaders and founders lean so strongly towards the true believer camp. > > In Africa, there’s a folk belief that having sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. Who the hell started _that_? It really blows my mind to think of someone coming up with something like that. But there MUST have been a first person, or group of persons, who spread that particular meme. A folk belief and a religion are not similar, they are actually diametrically opposed. The conversation is going well but I am very wary of these discussions because people use the term faith and superstition as though they are synonyms, and that IMO limits how fruitful such a discussion can be. Basically in Africa there is a rumor going around, but society is actively fighting that belief. It is not a religious belief but simply a rumor passed on by the ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/34 "2008-11-25T21:13:46Z")
Surely there must have been some point in human development, where the connection between sex and a baby appearing 9 mths later was not known? Doesn’t the worship of the mother symbol predate all traditional religions? Maybe the worshipping of a more patriarchal deity was a way of wresting power from the women(miracle makers) who had held power since mankind had been able to contemplate existence beyond day to day survival?\* Just a thought. - That line looks horrible! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/35 "2008-11-25T21:16:59Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Surely there must have been some point in human development, where the connection between sex and a baby appearing 9 mths later was not known? Doesn’t the worship of the mother symbol predate all traditional religions? Maybe the worshipping of a more patriarchal deity was a way of wresting power from the women(miracle makers) who had held power since mankind had been able to contemplate existence beyond day to day survival? Just a thought. That is interesting. I have some ideas regarding the notion of a supernatural deity as being seperate and distinct from the world in which one lives as being a metaphor for gestation. A holdover from the process of being in the womb. Of course this requires the idea that we were at least quasi-aware while in the womb. If you think of it in that sense, a male creator figure that is completely external to what you consider to be the natural world, is perfectly natural. You are there, and your Mother who at that point is essentially your entire world, is there, and there is this other entity that speaks to you from beyond the beyond that you eventually come to know of as ‘Father’. So perhaps from that point of view it is still a holdover of believing we are still in the womb, and that death is another birthing process by which we leave this world for yet another. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/36 "2008-11-26T14:54:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > A folk belief and a religion are not similar, they are actually diametrically opposed. But didn’t all religions start out as some type of folk belief (which may or may not have turned out to be ‘true’)? I am not trying to insult faith here, I promise. I just don’t understand the “diametrically opposed” part. Is it the ‘truth’ part that seperates a religion from folk belief? And if so, how is the truth part determined? ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/37 "2008-11-26T15:32:41Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > But didn’t all religions start out as some type of folk belief Aye, religions are comprised of folk beliefs and associated rituals. Ironicallym there’s some natural selection involved here in that only the strongest and fittest folk beliefs survive and are elevated to the status of canon. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/38 "2008-11-26T23:38:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right but there has to be some point of origin. A Hermes Trismegistus sort of character. Who was the first person to make up the notion? Where did it come from? Every infant who survives to grow up experiences a superior being providing for its every need. When we get older and learn language we still have that pre-linguistic memory. I’m not saying that’s where we DO get our idea of God, but it’s certainly where we COULD get such an idea, thus immediately refuting your concept that a specific Hermes Trismegistus had to exist to “create” this belief and make it enticing to people. Anyone with a moment’s reflection can see that the idea COULD have developed naturally in every society. Edit: after posting, I see that you have already given this some thought, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/39 "2008-11-27T00:01:48Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > After a few hundred years, I bet you’d be bored to tears with life. Probably even sooner than that. As the german philosopher Schopenhauer [wrote](http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/pessimism/chapter1.html) I don’t think I’d deny that things could _eventually_ become boring, but I think that to suggest it would happen within single-digit multiples of a normal human span seems like lack of imagination to me. Think of all the different things people do with their lives - thousands of each different, complex things that they spend their whole lives mastering - I wish I could take a shot at them all. Thousands of lifetimes would only scratch the surface. And think of the _new_ things you might be able to work out, if you had the experience of a substantial set of the things people already do. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377/40 "2008-11-27T00:25:39Z")
> [@JonScribe](#): > > You won’t be flushed down the loo. Evidently you have not read my father’s funeral wishes. I sure wish I was kidding, but I’m not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viewing-my-own-death-through-a-pet-fishs-death/474377.md?page=3)