They definitely aren’t a pure poistively good,
they also aren’t generally necessary, as many societies seem to do just fine (better) without them, so that rules out necessary evil.
and finally I also don’t think that they are wholly evil.
They are a tool that we would probably be better off without, but which many people seem to gain pleasure from having around, and aren’t going to be willing to give up. So I accept that we are stuck with them, but wish that the damage they cause could be mitigated with legislation.
The context of the 2nd was that no citizen would be denied the right to bear arms in defense of the nation, contra the British practice of excluding classes of subjects from the military. “A well-regulated militia” would consist of firearms owners meeting regularly (like monthly) for training and discipline. Non-militia-members carrying firearms in public would face severe punishment. Militia members would need reason to carry in public.
IMHO private firearm ownership can’t effectively be banned in the US. Too many are out in the wild already, and 3D printers can fabricate weapons stealthily. But carrying in public CAN and MUST be controlled. Otherwise we all, cops and civilians alike, MUST assume that everyone is carrying. Do you feel threatened? Shoot first, or you die.
This from West Wing pretty much sums it up for me:
TILLINGHOUSE
Honest to goodness, John, this isn’t a political maneuver.
HOYNES
I know.
TILLINGHOUSE
I’m voting my conscience.
HOYNES
I know.
TILLINGHOUSE
You can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. Two hundred and forty million
guns out there. How’re you gonna get them back?
HOYNES
You can’t.
TILLINGHOUSE
Of course not. And as long as they’ve got a gun, I want my wife to have a gun,
I want my daughter to have a gun, and damn it, I want one too.
All that aside, motor vehicles have VINs stamped all over them, referred to by a certificate of title. If you sell your car, you damn well better make sure you send in that part of the title where it says that you no longer have anything to do with that car, lest you face possible liability issues if the new owner misuses or abandons that car.
There is no corresponding mechanism with firearms. If you sell your gun to that guy over there, you need do no more than take his money. There is no record of your transaction or any was to find out about it, and gun rights advocates consistently oppose any form of database for keeping track of the movement of guns.
Guns are positively good.Don’t be silly. Guns are a necessary evil.Neither evil nor necessary. Guns are bad, period.Policing, self-defense, hunting, hobby … Where’s the “period”? Other.
Only a crackpot could answer anything but “Other.” (Present company excepted, of course. )
It’s not guns that bother me; it’s America’s gun culture that bothers me.
Some Americans sacrifice their family’s other needs to save up for an AR-15. :eek:
A Black reaches for his driver’s license in response to police order? Shoot him dead; he might be reaching for a (non-existent) gun. :smack:
Someone cuts in line at the fast food joint? Kill him before he kills you. :eek:
Alex Jones makes up some lie about a pizza parlor? Show up with your AR-15. :smack:
Glock by the bedstand? Keep a round in the chamber to save a jiffy when the bad guy appears. Never mind toddler boy who might pull the trigger like he saw in a movie. :eek:
Wife wants a nice vacation in Europe? “Can’t go honey: I’d feel naked without my handgun.” :smack:
Discussion on the topic is impossible, especially when one side goes all crapola about “natural rights.” :eek:
Et cetera, et cetera.
Some Dopers are confused by my posts because they think I’m trying to prescribe: “Oh, you’re gonna take away my AR-15, hunh? 2nd Commandment blah blah.”
No; I’m just Describing what I see as a deeply flawed culture. How could we even hope to look for solutions if we’re not willing to understand and agree on the problems, while remaining sensible and clear-headed?
I own 10 guns. All handed down to me. Couple of .22s, couple of shotguns, couple of large caliber lever action rifles, a .45 1911 and and .357.
I used to target and skeet shoot a lot back when I was a kid. So I’m very comfortable around them.
I do live remote, and get black bear sniffing around. Have used a gun to scare them away with a shot into a tree near them. When yelling at them and making noise just makes them more curious, it’s pretty clear that other motivation is needed. I would never shoot one except as a last resort. I feel I live in their territory, not the other way around. Had to replace the shed door for the third time last summer because a bear ripped it off. Again. Oh well. It’s what ya gotta do.
And as said, we do live remote. LEO’s might make it here in 5-15 minutes. Haven’t had to test it though. It would have to be the County or State Patrol. It would depend on where they are on their routes. If it’s winter we could be pretty much boned unless the LEO in question is in a 4x4.
Lots of moose too. But they are friends as long as we respect each others space. They are natural grass mowers, for whatever ‘grass’ you could say we have (the Rocky Mountains are named that for a reason).
As I do like target shooting, I invested $1000 in a very accurate air rifle (so I have purchased an unconventional gun). Just started with that last summer. It’s great. I was shooting from our deck and didn’t even disturb my wife’s nap.
I agree that the police have a propensity for unjustly shooting black men. Also, Edgar Madison Welch was a nut who shouldn’t be allowed to handle anything more dangerous than a crayon. Guns should be secured out of reach of children.
OTOH, I’d like some actual examples of the other things you claim to be simply describing.
Guns as a sports item, as a hunting tool, as a collector’s item, all of owned by someone who respects and keeps them properly, I’m fine with. I sure wouldn’t think of telling any of the farmers or sports hunters I know to “leave the bunnies be”. I’m more likely to say “cool, we’ve got half of lunch!”
Guns as The Symbol Of Freedom, scary, because the idea of violence equalling freedom is just fucked up.
A gun is no more a problem than a pair of scissors, a butcher’s hatchett or a kitchen’s oven. What can be a problem is the people using them.
“… and am too stupid to find out whether carrying is legal where you want to go”, apparently. I know we’ve had posters who believed that ownership of personal guns was just banned in all countries except the USA, but it’s not the case.
Although I did get into an argument with someone calling those who want people to own guns ‘ammosexuals’ and claiming that in absolutely NO WAY would privately owned weapons work in fighting against a government force [in the case of overthrowing the US or other government if it got froggy] until I pointed out a number of things …
with the right machine shop equipment any competent tech can make all sorts of weapons and with access to my barn and the various plumbing supplies I can make quite sophisticated zip guns, many people including mrAru and myself can crank out ‘ghost guns’ til the cows come home.
there are privately owned weapons previously used in war - I saw a Lahey Mountain gun for sale with the right FFL licensing reasonably inexpensively, I know a number of people who love canons in the SCA and start battles with a ceremonial firing as a starting gun - and I propose that a 5 pound solid iron ball at terminal velocity would put a serious crimp in the day of anybody riding in an armored personnel carrier … and any bunch that can hurl a punkin a mile and distribute seeds can just as easily toss a punkin full of IED downrange.
Any ammosexual who needs 30 rounds to mow down 5 guys is no match for someone with a sharpshooter tag that can take my russian sniper configured 91/30 and reach out and touch someone accurately at 750 meters … and we have enough ammo to make any bunch of yahoos with less range time and actual range very uncomfortable.
And last bit - you know how many retired/demobilized military there are out there knocking around that have no shit shoot someone and see the splatter experience? My brother was in a hunting group that would go out and snipe their deer tickets into completion and never failed to make their quota … it would be quite easy for any of them to turkey shoot a column of enemies with very little issue. These guys are not ammosexuals, they don’t open carry an AR15 into a McDonalds, they don’t need to prove how dangerous they are - they know how dangerous they are, and how dangerous weapons are in the wrong hands.
Other - guns have no moral value and it’s entirely on the owners.
Having said that, and noting that I’m not American: I favour relatively open ownership (so a very limited list of who can’t own a gun - stuff like convicted violent offenders, people with restraining orders, the mentally ill, kids, the blind…) , but very strict controls on both ownership- competence testing, home security checks, regular relicencing, mandatory insurance etc. - and sales. Basically on par with what we do for cars, planes etc.
What they said, mostly. Some people are a danger to themselves with rubber bands, others could own anything this side of Napalm and clusterbombs yet I’d be safe around them; if you have been trained and certified competent to handle firearms and adjunct devices safely and responsibly, and the people selling them to you have vetted you and left a reliable paper trail from factory to user, I am not particularly hung up on whatever tacticool options your weapon has or if you want one or six.
Accordions don’t play LADY OF SPAIN; people do. It’s difficult on harmonica.
Firearms don’t kill people; projectiles do. Outlaw RPGs, not their launchers, right?
Yes, people are more evil than their tools. But tools multiply the evil. A homicidal looney with a dull butter knife can commit less evil that one with an AK-47 with a few dozen full clips. My US Army M203 (M16 full-auto rifle with underslung grenade launcher) projected more firepower than a medieval army. Take THAT, crusaders!
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