# Villain protagonists in videogames - do they help or hinder your enjoyment? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000 "2023-04-01T20:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/21 "2023-04-06T08:07:17Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What I came to dislike about being bad guys in a video game came about with Bioware’s Knights of the Old Republic. When it comes to light versus dark side choices, the dark side choices were mainly about being an asshole for no real reason. I might get something relatively minor, but a lot of times it was just twisting the knife for the purposes of twisting the knfie. The funny thing is, that while up to the Big Reveal I didn’t much like most of the dark side choices (and never took the shitty ones, sticking to the ones that made sense and thus dooming myself to neutrality) after the reveal I did a hard right toward darkside because fuck those manipulating bastards. Few games have given me as much satisfaction as watching the ending sequence of KOTOR dark side. And few have been as disappointing as watching the light side ending. But in general, yes. The bad guy choices are rarely well done, or at least rarely done well consistently throughout the length of the game. Sometimes a game starts out with the ‘evil’ path being interesting and thought-provoking, but it feels like either the writers run out of ideas for evil paths that aren’t puppykicking, or some higher-ups force them to add puppykicking to the evil side because they can’t stand complex situations or something. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/22 "2023-04-06T08:09:41Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > This is the main reason why I find RPG morality systems to be a little silly; most of the evil stuff is just pissing people off for no reason. _The Stanley Parable_ hit the nail on the head when it comes to moral choices in video games. > **[The Stanley Parable - Choice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me-sx-QQXrs%2F)** > > This video appears in the re-release of the mod The Stanley Parable. The original video can be found by taking the divergent path that leads to a crane lift,... ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/23 "2023-04-06T10:37:29Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > One of my problems with _Last of Us Part II_ was being forced to play as one POV character when I just wanted them to die but I had to keep them alive to move the story along. Won’t spoil it. I had the same issue. Not only did you have to play as one thoroughly hateable POV character, they made the likeable POV character you started out with hateable, too. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/24 "2023-04-06T14:50:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t mind a game that has two sides, and you get to play as either. Being the baddie is fun, every once in a while. But I mostly want to play as a good guy. A game that’s just you as a villain? Not interested. I’m the exact opposite. I don’t mind games where you’re locked in to play as a villain. But if I’m given the choice in a game I’m always going the good guy route. At worst I’ll be “I’m good but you have to pay me first” guy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/25 "2023-04-06T18:41:13Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > This is the main reason why I find RPG morality systems to be a little silly; most of the evil stuff is just pissing people off for no reason. On the other hand, the villain choices in 4X games are really, really, _really_ evil. Last month, I exterminated all biological life in the galaxy in a game of _Stellaris_. Filthy meatbags. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/26 "2023-04-06T20:10:39Z")
[They’re made out of meat!](https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/27 "2023-04-07T15:21:43Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > Sometimes a game starts out with the ‘evil’ path being interesting and thought-provoking, but it feels like either the writers run out of ideas for evil paths that aren’t puppykicking, or some higher-ups force them to add puppykicking to the evil side because they can’t stand complex situations or something. In City of Villains (the bad-guy expansion for City of Heroes), there are a wide variety of villainous contacts and missions available, but a lot of them amount to just “Go beat up this other group of villains, because they’re rivals”. Apparently, a lot of players complained that beating up other villains didn’t seem properly villainous enough. And so they added Weston Phipps. Phipps lives solely for the purpose of crushing peoples’ spirits. Ostensibly, he runs a charitable shelter for people of the Rogue Isles who are down on their luck. In actuality, he just keeps them there long enough to get their hopes up, and to find out what the worst thing is that could happen to them, and then he hires freelance ne’er-do-wells like you to make it happen to them. I don’t think there are any literal puppies in his missions, but if he did ever encounter one, there’s no doubt that he would kick it. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2023, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/28 "2023-04-10T11:45:19Z")
I rather enjoyed Knights of the Old Republic 2, an old single player Star Wars RPG (not to be confused with the similarly named MMO). You could choose to go down the Dark Side and embrace the Sith ideology, but unlike the movies, the Sith were not cartoon evil wizards who shot lightning for no reason. They were an outcast group of Jedi who got sick of the red tape and corrupt, bloated bureaucracy and decided to splinter off and chase individual dreams instead. It’s more Ayn Rand than George Lucas, and playing as the villain was much more interesting especially in the late game where the morality became a lot grayer. The game’s morality system has no clear rights or wrongs, but instead had a deep and moldable narrative that respected your chosen moral nuances and let them play out organically, without judgment or oversimplification. It did a much better job of this than the simplified Sith story arcs in the MMO game later on. --------------------/ Separately, I believe the same writer, Chris Avellone, also did Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights 2, both RPG morality plays I also tremendously enjoyed. His version of evil isn’t crass and cruel or dumb, but measured, meaningful, ruthless, and ambitious. It was more about weighing the needs of one’s self vs their other loyalties and then seeing how different variations of such could take the story. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000/29 "2023-04-11T04:01:46Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > I rather enjoyed Knights of the Old Republic 2, an old single player Star Wars RPG (not to be confused with the similarly named MMO). Also had one of the single greatest NPCs ever conceived of in a video game. Kreia was shear brilliance start to finish (I’ve only played the restored content patch so maybe she’s not as interesting in the released version). She’s always consistent in her behavior, even when it seems like she isn’t. She has one loyalty, and that’s to the person who she believes will best achieve her main goal of destroying the force permanently without destroying life in the process and her secondary goal of not having the original Sith lords come back from whatever dimension they fucked off to. (The original Sith are really bad news. They aren’t caught up in petty squabbles amongst themselves like the current Sith.) That person at the point of the game’s beginning is you. Everything she does is what she believes is best for you to be able to achieve her goal(s). And she threads all the right needles at the right times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villain-protagonists-in-videogames-do-they-help-or-hinder-your-enjoyment/982000.md?page=1)