# Villains becoming sympathetic - done well, done poorly, general discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 13, 2017, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024 "2017-01-13T11:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/61 "2017-01-14T14:21:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Enkidu did cross my mind but Enkidu isn’t bad; he’s an opponent. And he’s encountered and becomes Gilgamesh’s friend early on. Yeah, that’s why I say “can be stretched” to fit–I’m going more towards age of the fiction than closeness to the trope (and this is going just about as far back as you can get with fiction.) Gilgamesh himself is a better fit–“Sure, Gilgamesh rebuilt our city and all…” (say the people of Uruk) “…but it’d be really nice if he’d stop raping our girls and fighting our boys and possibly raping our boys.” ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/62 "2017-01-14T14:31:56Z")
In _Downton Abbey_, footman Thomas Barrow starts off as the co-villain of the show. He’s scheming and underhanded and pulls all kinds of mean tricks to put himself forward. But by the end of the show he has lost his co-conspirator, is thwarted in his romantic life, is about to lose his job and converts to a misunderstood, well-meaning guy. Then he’s awarded the plum job of butler in the last episode. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/63 "2017-01-14T15:08:00Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Spike was the first one I thought of when seeing the topic line. There are other examples in the Buffyverse, including Harmony, Anya, and Clem. Clem was never a villain. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/64 "2017-01-14T15:13:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Clem was never a villain. His first appearance was as a creepy, imposing kitten eater. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/65 "2017-01-14T15:16:43Z")
Another ASOIAF/Game of Thrones example – Sandor “The Hound” Clegane. Early on he kills a child (Mycah, the butcher’s boy, and Arya’s friend) after being ordered by Joffrey. By the latest books and episodes, he’s a fan favorite, and someone most fans root for. Even Cersei is somewhat sympathetic, at least in the books. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/66 "2017-01-14T15:57:16Z")
For and obvious “done well”, the Terminator. In one film he goes from merciless cyborg killing machine to merciless cyborg best buddy. For “done reasonably well” I would say the Cylons from the Battlestar Galactica reboot. The #6s and #8s started out as typical weaponized sexbots used for infiltration and sabotage. By the end, their motivations and allegiances become more complex. For “done poorly” I vote Mystique from the X-Men films. Old Rebecca Romijn Mystique was just sort of an evil henchperson who didn’t say much. New J-Law Mystique is this outspoken reluctant hero of the mutant community. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/67 "2017-01-14T16:06:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > For and obvious “done well”, the Terminator. In one film he goes from merciless cyborg killing machine to merciless cyborg best buddy. Darn, I read the whole thread and no one mention the Terminator until the last post. That was mine! “Come with me if you want to live!” ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/68 "2017-01-14T16:21:48Z")
I have a vague memory of a MASH episode where Hot Lips (technically more of a heavy than a villain I spose) giving a very impassioned pseudo-tirade to her nurses about never including HL in any of their bonhomie. Quite a moving scene actually - definitely made me sympathize more with HL’s character. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/69 "2017-01-14T16:49:13Z")
Merle and Daryl from the Walking Dead: the two had planned on robbing the Atlanta people. Merle was quite the racist, sexist and just plain gross dude who ended up sacrificing himself for those same people. Daryl slipped from being a bad guy to a good guy early on but he slid back into that role during the episodes he was hanging out with the bad guys (The Claimers) and back out (back with Rick)and back in (while hanging with Negan). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/70 "2017-01-14T16:53:36Z")
There’s been some good examples, but I could only think of ones from media stereotypically aimed at adolescents, like animation, video games, or comics. I tried thinking of more sophisticated examples, but it seems in those most everyone is morally gray to some extent, or the bad people are so bad that redemption would be outrageous, or the source of evil isn’t a person, but a system. Such an arc would be out of place in something like The White Ribbon or Synecdoche, New York. The already mentioned Zuko from The Last Airbender TV series is the best executed example of this trope I’ve seen by a significant margin. A lot of examples happen too fast and come off as unbelievable, whereas Zuko’s transformation takes most of the show’s run. Instead of a linear path of change there’s lots of false starts and dead ends. He goes through so much torment and disillusionment that his redemption actually feels earned. He wasn’t a huge villain though, more of an angsty teenager with serious daddy issues, an inferiority complex regarding his sister, and a healthy dose of nationalist propaganda. Other than fighting the heroes, I can’t remember him doing anything super evil. Burned down a couple villages as a result of his fights? Ice King from Adventure Time starts off as a goofy villain who likes kidnapping princesses. Over time he’s revealed to be a pathetic, pitiable figure who barely remembers what he’s lost. He hangs out with the good guys now. Peridot from Steven Universe slowly switched sides over many episodes. She’s still a bit of an obnoxious ego maniac, but also more adorkable. > [@Trancephalic](#): > > I’m really not going to bother listing video game characters; this trope is very prevalent in Japanese media. Yeah, this seems mandatory in Japanese RPGs and anime. It’s even odds whether the first low level villain the heroes meet will end up joining them halfway through or somehow become even worse than the original villain. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Okay, okay, we are going with video game characters, we are going with other cartoon characters, I’m going to have to say it. [Starlight Glimmer](http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Starlight_Glimmer). Fun villain, but her back story was poorly conceived, didn’t make me feel much sympathy, and didn’t support her personality. A better one would be if she were a magic prodigy and was the one sent away from her home, instead of being left behind. Then she’s isolated and treated like a freak by her school mates and blames her cutie mark for ruining her life. You could do a lot more to flesh out the origin of her beliefs, which I thought had some merit but were later brushed off as being evil. The show is really bad at rushed villain reformations in general, though it does well showing them struggling to fit in and slipping back into bad habits (Luna Eclipsed, No Second Prances, most Discord episodes). ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/71 "2017-01-15T04:41:30Z")
The oldest example I can think of is Tadohado of Haudenosaunee legend. A voilent war monger who becomes the enforcer of peace. How old it is, or if it’s based on real events is unknown, though. Under tvtropes’ Heel-face turn page, there’s Paul the Apostle. As for Terminator 2, that T-800 isn’t the same one from the first Terminator… ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/72 "2017-01-15T05:50:45Z")
Oskar Schindler as depicted in _Schindler’s List_. Starts off as a scheming Nazi war profiteer, evolves into a true hero. Inspector Javert in the movie musical version of _Les Miserables_ (and to a lesser extent in the book and the stage musical). Doesn’t actually become a hero, but becomes more sympathetic before he kills himself. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/73 "2017-01-15T06:03:50Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > The oldest example I can think of is Tadohado of Haudenosaunee legend. Gilgamesh basically starts out as a despot and tyrant, who eventually becomes a hero and just ruler. ---
**Author:** ![GythaOgg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@GythaOgg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GythaOgg)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/74 "2017-01-15T17:32:06Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > (snip) > The already mentioned Zuko from The Last Airbender TV series is the best executed example of this trope I’ve seen by a significant margin. A lot of examples happen too fast and come off as unbelievable, whereas Zuko’s transformation takes most of the show’s run. Instead of a linear path of change there’s lots of false starts and dead ends. He goes through so much torment and disillusionment that his redemption actually feels earned. He wasn’t a huge villain though, more of an angsty teenager with serious daddy issues, an inferiority complex regarding his sister, and a healthy dose of nationalist propaganda. Other than fighting the heroes, I can’t remember him doing anything super evil. Burned down a couple villages as a result of his fights? > (snip) I agree 100% with this. You literally see Zuko learning throughout the show’s run. This is the first example I though of as well. By the time you get his redemption scenes, they feel truly earned. Up to almost the last few episodes, some of the heroes don’t trust him; he doesn’t earn it all at once or easily. It comes piece by piece to him in a way that feels very well developed. His redemption/apology scene with his uncle (the only really decent member of his family) is cited by many as one of the emotional high points of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/75 "2017-01-15T20:07:38Z")
> [@Sasquatch](#): > > A lot of fans of [Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) put Redcloak into this category. He is still pretty evil, but not EVIL like Xykon. And he has some good ends to justify his means, depending on how sympathetic you are to murdering people for a chance at racial equality. In the spirit of “general discussion” I think it is worth while mentioning Rich Burlew’s preface to Start of Darkness, which portrays the background of Burlew’s villians, especially Xykon. In the preface Burlew reflects on generating sympathy for the villians. [QUOTE=Rich Burlew] Writing a story centered around your main antagonist is sort of difficult, because you risk “devillianifying” them. Yes, I just made that word up. What I mean, though, is that once an audience has read all about a character’s life, with all of their personal struggles and trials and tribulations and such, it is more difficult to see the character as the Big Bad. My challenge here was to tell the story of Xykon’s life without making Xykon even slightly sympathetic. I mean, he’s completely and unapologetically Evil, but more to the point, he’s kind of a dick…There are people in this world who are driven to evil because of what their life has made them endure; Xykon is not one of those. Redclock might be, though. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/76 "2017-01-16T01:07:05Z")
Multiple examples of it being done well on the series _The Closer_. Brenda Lee Johnson has (@ beginning of 1st season) not one but a whole batch of homicide officers who are hostile and contemptuous of her. None of them flips abruptly or without reason. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/77 "2017-01-16T05:59:24Z")
When Robert B. Parker first introduced Hawk in the “Spenser” series, Hawk was a professional thug- the kind of guy loan sharks hired to rough up deadbeats. Over time, he was turned into a near-hero. ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/78 "2017-01-16T08:11:23Z")
> [@Catamount](#): > > I’d nominate Lestat for the worst conversion from villain to hero. He’s an amoral killer all throughout **Interview with the Vampire** and then in the next book and for the rest of the series it turns out that he’s just _misunderstood_, man. Then he becomes Anne Rice’s fictional boyfriend and things get weird. Yep. Rice seems to have through that the commercial success of subsequent books necessitated the rehabilitation of someone who was a very nasty piece of work. Rogue in the X-Men comics. Bad guy, uses her powers horribly and consequently develops schizophrenia, turns to Professor X for help, knocks on the door seeking assistance and is nearly punched into orbit. It was very good, because Claremont took someone who was actually really, really bad and made them a sympathetic character - where the sympathy is generated by the consequences of her own misgivings. And, as the vast majority of readers have forgotten, Rogue’s addition to the X-Men got a lot of hate mail back in the day. Fans really didn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/79 "2017-01-16T12:21:27Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Multiple examples of it being done well on the series _The Closer_. Brenda Lee Johnson has (@ beginning of 1st season) not one but a whole batch of homicide officers who are hostile and contemptuous of her. None of them flips abruptly or without reason. Yeah, I thought about an example from _The Closer_ last night. Whatzhername from BSG was–while not exactly a “villain”–an antagonist to Closer. But she ended up becoming the lead protagonist when Closer left and the show was renamed _Major Crimes_. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/80 "2017-01-16T12:29:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s not a good end if you’re not their people - and, sorry for the Godwin, but look at it this way : all Hitler ever wanted was a just and peaceful world for his people 😉 But as noted above, while Redcloak is willing to kill all humans to achieve his goal, his goal isn’t killing all humans - and he’s only willing to do that after a lifetime of watching humans - “Lawful Good” humans - indiscriminately slaughter his friends and family. And after attempts at a peaceful resolution of the situation (by the Dark One) failed due to human duplicity. Hitler didn’t have that excuse - his whole village wasn’t massacred by Jews in front of his eyes. Redcloak also has a Damascene moment at the Battle of Azure City where he realizes that he is treating hobgoblins the same way humans - and Xykon - treat goblins, and changes his behaviour for the better (from a non-human standpoint, anyway). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024.md?page=5)