# Villains becoming sympathetic - done well, done poorly, general discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 13, 2017, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024 "2017-01-13T11:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/81 "2017-01-16T14:37:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Redcloak also has a Damascene moment at the Battle of Azure City where he realizes that he is treating hobgoblins the same way humans - and Xykon - treat goblins, and changes his behaviour for the better (from a non-human standpoint, anyway). That last part is the sticker. Redcloak has no worries about torture and killing and he’s yukked it up with Xykon before over others’ pain. He just doesn’t extend that to goblinoids any longer. But saying “I’m cool with torturing others for laughs, just not goblins” doesn’t exactly earn you a “Lawful Neutral” on your alignment line. Likewise, he allies with a chaotic evil psychopath to achieve his goals. Roy had the excuse that he’s a restraining influence on Belkar – Redcloak enables Xykon and helps Xykon achieve greater acts of depravity. Assuming Stickworld goblin society is akin to D&D goblin society in general, it’s one based on subjugation of the weak, torture, enslaving your foes, etc and that’s the world Redcloak wants to bring about. Redcloak is like Malack: they have (had) some qualities that, isolated, are good ones to have and thus allow the reader to relate to them a little more, but both definitely earn their Evil status. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/82 "2017-01-16T20:20:02Z")
> [@TYphoonSignal8](#): > > Yep. Rice seems to have through that the commercial success of subsequent books necessitated the rehabilitation of someone who was a very nasty piece of work. > > Rogue in the X-Men comics. Bad guy, uses her powers horribly and consequently develops schizophrenia, turns to Professor X for help, knocks on the door seeking assistance and is nearly punched into orbit. It was very good, because Claremont took someone who was actually really, really bad and made them a sympathetic character - where the sympathy is generated by the consequences of her own misgivings. And, as the vast majority of readers have forgotten, Rogue’s addition to the X-Men got a lot of hate mail back in the day. Fans really didn’t like it. Not what I remember. Most fans were happy to have a woman on the team who wasn’t matronly virgin (Storm) or all of 14 years old (Kitty Pryde). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/83 "2017-01-16T20:40:51Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > Oskar Schindler as depicted in _Schindler’s List_. Starts off as a scheming Nazi war profiteer, evolves into a true hero. Schindler wasn’t the _villain_ at any point, though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/84 "2017-01-16T20:47:51Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Not what I remember. Most fans were happy to have a woman on the team who wasn’t matronly virgin (Storm) or all of 14 years old (Kitty Pryde). If I were making a list of adjectives that don’t apply to Storm, “matronly virgin” would be only slightly behind “white male.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/85 "2017-01-16T22:31:09Z")
> [@Sasquatch](#): > > A lot of fans of [Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) put Redcloak into this category. He is still pretty evil, but not EVIL like Xykon. And he has some good ends to justify his means, depending on how sympathetic you are to murdering people for a chance at racial equality. For me, Redcloak is far worse. Xykon’s just an antagonist; Redcloak is the true villain. He’s the manipulator, the power behind the scenes. And he has no compunctions about using Xykon. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/86 "2017-01-16T23:07:22Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > I’m really not going to bother listing video game characters; this trope is very prevalent in Japanese media. Can’t really think of any Western examples, though. **Portal**. GLaDOS goes from villain of the first game to reluctant companion in the second finally developing with her having a measure of appreciation (or at least respect) for you at the conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/87 "2017-01-16T23:36:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Schindler wasn’t the _villain_ at any point, though. You’d think “scheming Nazi war profiteer” would tick at least two boxes on your villain form. ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/88 "2017-01-17T01:03:36Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Not what I remember. Most fans were happy to have a woman on the team who wasn’t matronly virgin (Storm) or all of 14 years old (Kitty Pryde). Shall dig up contemporary letters pages overnight in support of my contention. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/89 "2017-01-17T22:18:40Z")
As for badly done transformations… Darth Vader never showed any signs of having a heart or a conscience. Luke claims to sense goodness and conflict in his Dad, but we have to take Luke’s word for it because Vader never displayed anything like love, kindness or humanity until the moment he dropped the Emperor down the shaft. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/90 "2017-01-17T23:13:09Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > In _Downton Abbey_, footman Thomas Barrow starts off as the co-villain of the show. He’s scheming and underhanded and pulls all kinds of mean tricks to put himself forward. But by the end of the show he has lost his co-conspirator, is thwarted in his romantic life, is about to lose his job and converts to a misunderstood, well-meaning guy. Then he’s awarded the plum job of butler in the last episode. I thought that Thomas’s character transformation was well done… largely because the actor was quite good. Everyone else’s reactions to him, however… not so much. He was caught stealing from the household, and was also a massive prick. No way everyone forgives and forgets so quickly. (If we were really studying this topic in depth, that would be a good division point, actually… how the character changes internally while switching from villain to sympathetic, and how other characters react.) ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024/91 "2017-01-18T20:36:12Z")
There are two that come to mind, which I thought were both very good pictures: “The Joyriders”, in which three teenagers kidnap an old suicidal man in his car, and they forge a mutually supportive friendship; “Sugar Land”, an prison escapee forces a state trooper at gunpoint to drive him to Mexico. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-becoming-sympathetic-done-well-done-poorly-general-discussion/777024.md?page=4)