# Villains with a point **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** comic-books-manga\ **Created:** [September 5, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885 "2020-09-05T16:17:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2020, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/221 "2020-10-17T05:44:50Z")
It wasn’t any motivation of his, as far as I can tell. He’d have to have the point, and without a cite saying he cared in the least, I’d have to say he lacked a point. Anything else is an accident of history, and he can’t take credit. I don’t doubt he’d have enslaved everyone in Texas if he thought it meant he’d remain in power for life. That’s not an outrageous claim for national leaders in the 19th century, and I don’t see it being beyond the pale when discussing Santa Anna. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2020, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/222 "2020-10-17T05:51:26Z")
Why do you say that? Why would he free the slaves? They were legal in Texas. Let me repeat that- they were 100% legal in Texas under Mexican law. At no time did he make freeing the slaves a point. I dont see _anything, anywhere_ that says he gave a rats ass about the slaves. Or his own people for that matter, why the hell would he care about slaves? He didnt even free the two slaves he found- one was sent to the texas with the women and kids, one had to escape. Ok, maybe he might of, just to spite the loser texans. Or, since he was really short of cash, maybe he would have sold them. And yes, slavery _is_ bad. But Murdering your own people is even worse. Remember, he killed 2000 civilians in one city because they revolted. Under his direct orders, his men raped and looted Zacatecas, killing at least 2000. And becoming Dictator for life, making all your subjects functionally slaves is worse still. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/223 "2020-10-17T13:53:22Z")
[Moderating] This being Cafe Society, can we keep the discussion to fictional villains? Discussion of real, historical villains and their points or lack thereof would surely be better suited for Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/224 "2020-10-18T04:54:08Z")
On that note, I don’t know if anyone here plays Elite, or the newer Elite: Dangerous. However, the Thargoids are interesting foes who may not be “evil” in any sense. First off, God knows how aggressive and jerk-ish the humans act in the game, and the Thargoids seem to view human encroachment in some regions of space to be hostile. So from their perspective they may be retaliating against unjust incursions into their territory. This is made more complicated by the fact that neither side really seems to understand the other at all; humans and Thargoids have never been able to communicate and, insofar as I can tell, both species are making guesses about the other. ---
**Author:** ![stuccosuperstar2020](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@stuccosuperstar2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuccosuperstar2020)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/225 "2020-10-19T06:23:38Z")
To me a good villain always has a good point or grudge. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/226 "2020-10-19T19:50:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yet Mexico was some 35 years ahead of the US in this respect, and the fact that Mexico had made slavery illegal was one of the issues that led to the Texan rebellion. And the fact that the Texans were flouting the law showed how little respect they had for their adopted country. The Texicans, including natural born Mexicans, were not too keen on the government changes which placed almost all power in the hands of Santa Anna. They expected a Mexican republic and suddenly that’s not what they had. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/227 "2020-10-19T19:52:18Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The Texicans, including natural born Mexicans, were not too keen on the government changes which placed almost all power in the hands of Santa Anna. They expected a Mexican republic and suddenly that’s not what they had.. See the mod note two posts above, which has instructed that this should be restricted to fictional villians. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/228 "2020-10-19T19:53:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > See the mod note two posts above, which has instructed that this should be restricted to fictional villians. I see it. I mean I didn’t see it until _after_ I posted but I see it now. Curse me for replying before reading all the other replies. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/229 "2020-10-20T04:13:44Z")
Anything with grave robbers being painted as bad guys. The dead folks won’t be needing all that gold anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/230 "2020-10-20T04:42:49Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I see it. I mean I didn’t see it until _after_ I posted but I see it now. Curse me for replying before reading all the other replies. On that note, has anyone mentioned Ursula from _The Little Mermaid_? All she wanted was for Ariel to abide by the terms of the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/231 "2020-10-20T04:47:03Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > The dead folks won’t be needing all that gold anyway. Oh my Og, that scene from Paradise Road, just thinking about sets my, uh, teeth on edge. I barely remember much else from that movie, but, arrgh, that part will not go away. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/232 "2020-10-20T04:51:47Z")
So one big archetype of villain that has a point is the “heartless top brass”. Though they are not always the main villain of the story. There’s been an virus outbreak, zombie uprising, or whatever weapon of mass destruction in some isolated location (or an evil genius threatening to release the same). Our intrepid hero is trying his best to resolve the issue by liberal application of science and/or roundhouse kicks, but the brass have no time to wait so see if he succeeds, they insist they must start dropping lots of bombs on the isolated location until whatever is there is neutralized. Yes they realize this will kill our hero, his love interest and some other survivors, but there are millions of lives at risk dammit! So yeah out hero saves the day at the last minute and the air strike is averted. But seriously the air strike was completely the right call, if our hero had been 10 seconds later then millions of people would be dead. Off the top of my head The Rock and Outbreak both have this (and the computer in the original Resident Evil could be considered a variant of it). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/233 "2020-10-20T08:44:35Z")
To be fair to The Rock, if the heroes had been ten seconds later the full airstrike would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/234 "2020-10-20T13:26:56Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > On that note, has anyone mentioned Ursula from _The Little Mermaid_ ? All she wanted was for Ariel to abide by the terms of the agreement. Since when are minors in any position to enter into a contract without parental consent? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/235 "2020-10-20T13:45:53Z")
In the book, it is blazingly clear that Deckard is not a replicant. In the book, replicants have no empathy (can not merge with Mercer), and mock the very idea of empathy. The best summary of the difference between the book and the movie is that in the book we learn that some humans can be just as bad (deficient in empathy) as androids are, while in the movie we learn that some replicants can be as good as humans are - both works examine human nature, but from different directions. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/236 "2020-10-20T13:51:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > To be fair to The Rock, if the heroes had been ten seconds later the full airstrike would have happened. Yeah but any remotely competent villains would have gassed San Francisco twice over by that point. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/237 "2020-10-20T14:57:48Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Since when are minors in any position to enter into a contract without parental consent? I guess it depends on whether she had reached the aged of majority for mer-people. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/238 "2020-10-20T15:28:28Z")
And what legal system is used under the sea, and whether it even recognizes age of majority (I mean most of the undersea citizens are fish) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/239 "2020-10-20T16:36:39Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Off the top of my head The Rock and Outbreak both have this (and the computer in the original Resident Evil could be considered a variant of it). Thinking on this, Armageddon is sort of similar (I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that a great many Michael Bay stories feature this trope, actually). And here, it wasn’t even a question of whether the hero would die or people would be saved, just would the hero get his chance to commit suicide on the asteroid, rather than having it blown up by remote. For that, all of humanity was put at hazard: to be able to tell the story that Bruce Willis sacrificed himself in full, rather than that he was sacrificed at all. Seriously. WTF people? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2020, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885/240 "2020-10-23T11:46:50Z")
Callisto, on _Xena, Warrior Princess_. She’s played as crazy-- really, over-the-top crazy-- and she is: grief-crazed. At one point, we get to see a flashback of what Xena actually did to her family (not a spoiler to mention this), and in another episode, we get a glimpse of what she could have been were it not for Xena. She’s _so extreme_, and hurts other people as a sideways attempt to hurt Xena; her methods are beyond evil, but ultimately, if the audience buys Xena as redeemable (which is the whole premise of the show), we have to believe that Callisto could be redeemed as well. Whether she is, or is not is beside the point-- we have to believe the possibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/villains-with-a-point/919885.md?page=11)