# Vincent Bugliosi is dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 9, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105 "2015-06-09T21:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/41 "2015-06-18T23:03:34Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I only have a minute to respond, so, I’ll go with the Healter Skelter thing, right now. > > Druggies have Helter Skelter in their heads. Druggies have a lot of good drugs in their bodies. Now, they are (per hh’s theory) murdering people because of the bloodlust that accompanies a violent attack, which they have perpetrated against Tate et al. > Bloodlust, Beatles music and some really, really good drugs. Nonsense that they heard from CM about Helter Skelter. Blood all around. Oh, also, free spirits and stupidity that accompanies disaffected youth, and, youth in general, esp. in the 60s; you think that they could have only written that stuff on the walls by being under the firm control of Manson? - Please insert this after “…drugs in their bodies…” - "Druggies go to Tate’s house to rob. Find resistance from inhabitants. Druggies, their requests not being honored, become violent. " I’m not saying that my scenario is authoritative, but, if you can’t see it as being viable, then I suggest that it is because your (as in you/me/most people’s) natural bias is with “the State”, and “society”, which Manson’s people had openly disregarded; this is an indirect attack on you (us, etc…) so, they must be evil as VB states. His acid-head witnesses back him up!(Could be wrong, tho.) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/42 "2015-06-19T15:58:53Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > - Please insert this after “…drugs in their bodies…” > > - "Druggies go to Tate’s house to rob. Find resistance from inhabitants. Druggies, their requests not being honored, become violent. " > > I’m not saying that my scenario is authoritative, but, if you can’t see it as being viable, then I suggest that it is because your (as in you/me/most people’s) natural bias is with “the State”, and “society”, which Manson’s people had openly disregarded; this is an indirect attack on you (us, etc…) so, they must be evil as VB states. His acid-head witnesses back him up!(Could be wrong, tho.) I believe you are missing two salient points: 1. It’s been 45 years, thereabouts, since the murders. In that time, the other killers have sobered up, gone into counseling, and testified many times at parole hearings. And they have corroborated the Helter Skelter story, at a time when it is in their best interests (i.e. pleading for leniency) to tell the truth. You might try to handwave this away, but if you watch the Van Houten video I linked to upthread, you’ll see that she takes great pains to emphasize that she is separating what she personally remembers of the crime with what she has since been told. And she talks about Manson’s control over the group. 1. The defendants openly rejected this “mind control” theory at the time of trial, and in so doing acted very much under Manson’s influence, completely against their own best interests, thereby demonstrating his cult-like control over them. It wasn’t just the carving of their foreheads. That is why the defense attorneys didn’t put on a defense! Each of the girls was going to take full responsibility and claim that Manson had nothing to do with it…their own attorneys refused to go along with implicating their own clients, so they didn’t let them testify. They all tried at some point to fire their attorneys. Hell, Van Houten’s attorney wanted to bifurcate her trial (since she wasn’t involved with the Tate murders, and only participated in the second night of killing at the LaBianca house), and he ended up dead! Despite the possibility of securing a lesser sentence, they were more interested in protecting Charlie, their leader. You’re position is that anybody who doesn’t give think that your theory is viable is because they have a “natural bias” with “the State” and “society”. I’m going to disagree and say that those who don’t give credence to your theory do so because it is devoid of any specific analysis of the facts. Rather, you just choose to disbelieve, even in the face of evidence - and that is a plain bias of your own. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/43 "2015-06-19T20:33:37Z")
Is there a known link on the web to the full trial transcript(s)? I’ve googled, and found portions, like some of Kasabian’s testimony, as well as others, but not the whole thing. I’m sure in print form, it would probably run into hundreds of volumes, and use several gigabytes of data online, if not more, but I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/44 "2015-06-19T20:50:32Z")
From hunting around a bit, I’ve only found portions, too. It appears that you can find some of the trial transcript [here](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansontestimony.html). The same website has Vince Bugliosi’s summation [here](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonsummation.html). The testimony of Terry Melcher is [here](http://www.cielodrive.com/terry-melcher-trial-testimony.php). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/45 "2015-06-19T22:05:52Z")
That’s one of the websites I found by googling. Thanks **Moriarty** for the links. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/46 "2015-06-19T22:48:44Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > For **tapu** and anyone else who thinks Watson was the mastermind behind the murders, would you please tell me what his motive was? Because I’ve never heard it. Why the Tate house? Manson’s reason wasn’t just the race war, but he wanted revenge on Terry Melcher and what Melcher symbolized. At least Bugliosi’s version of the motive makes sense. It’s psychotic, but it makes sense. I’ve never heard of Watson’s motive, so please tell me. I could be wrong here (I trust someone will let me know), but I believe it’s cited in Tex’s book and in Helter Skelter that the drugs they took before the murders was speed. Tex brought a gun to a knife fight. He’s also who told the girls to get Bowie knives or got them for them. I believe Tex got to the Tate house, pumped up, as were the girls. Went inside, there was no sum of money lying around, he started to resent these “establishment” = rich types, and he started killing, with a knife, “over-stabbing” the way someone on speed might do, got the girls involved, tapping into Sadie’s sick fascination with the baby in Sharon Tate. Ended up with everyone dead, Tex’s gun coming out again for the valiantly fighting Voytex. Tex’s shooting of the Parent kid shows that Tex was on a mission–his mission–but not necessarily Charlie’s. Nothing points to Charlie leading Tex. And things in such a violent, out-of-control situation are never lockstep. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/47 "2015-06-19T23:18:35Z")
Reasonable points, but all you’ve done is establish that they were functioning individuals and not some kind of lobotomized Manson-bots. That Tex chose to shoot Parent and that they made this choice and that choice doesn’t invalidate the claim that Manson programmed their thinking and actions. The whole “Helter Skelter” plan was to incite the race riots with messy, scary, excessive murders and other acts. It was never “go neatly execute these five people.” I don’t buy the Tex theory. Sorry. Not from this claim, anyway. Steve Parent was one of David Gerrold’s best friends, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/48 "2015-06-19T23:28:19Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I could be wrong here (I trust someone will let me know), but I believe it’s cited in Tex’s book and in Helter Skelter that the drugs they took before the murders was speed. Why are you willingto believe Tex when he writes that he took drugs, but you refuse to believe him when he says that he was acting on Manson’s orders? > [@](#): > > He brought a gun to a knife fight. He’s also who told the girls to get Bowie knives or got them for them. Where did Tex get the gun from? > [@](#): > > Nothing points to Charlie leading Tex. You ran with your tail between your legs in the Great Debate thread on Manson, but you are doubling down here. Are you sure that you mean to use the word “nothing”? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/49 "2015-06-20T01:01:44Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Reasonable points, but all you’ve done is establish that they were functioning individuals and not some kind of lobotomized Manson-bots. That Tex chose to shoot Parent and that they made this choice and that choice doesn’t invalidate the claim that Manson programmed their thinking and actions. The whole “Helter Skelter” plan was to incite the race riots with messy, scary, excessive murders and other acts. It was never “go neatly execute these five people.” > > I don’t buy the Tex theory. Sorry. Not from this claim, anyway. > Steve Parent was one of David Gerrold’s best friends, by the way. To think about: there’s not much evidence that Charles Tex Watson was under the “spell,” “led in a cult” by Charles Manson. If we break the connection there, then really we’re just talking about Tex Watson, spree killer. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/50 "2015-06-20T01:58:51Z")
So Tex got the girls to go apeshit, then? And your evidence for that is…? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105/51 "2015-06-20T02:22:25Z")
Why the Tate house, if Tex was behind it? Manson had been placed there before the murders, and knew Melcher. He had reason for that house. > [@tapu](#): > > To think about: there’s not much evidence that Charles Tex Watson was under the “spell,” “led in a cult” by Charles Manson. If we break the connection there, then really we’re just talking about Tex Watson, spree killer. But you can’t break the connection between Watson and Manson. That’s the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vincent-bugliosi-is-dead/722105.md?page=2)