# Vindman and Sondland: further retaliation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 9, 2020, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669 "2020-02-09T10:01:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/21 "2020-02-09T20:07:00Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Canada, actually. > > And I admit that I had not appreciated the full implications of Trump’s Senate acquittal. Trump wouldn’t have been acquitted if popular support for his impeachment and removal had swollen to levels that compelled the Senate to act in order to save their own asses. But, that’s not what happened. And it didn’t happen because not enough Americans have a value system that is compatible with democracy’s continued viability. Some of these voters like Trump or think he’s doing a good job; others are checked out. Some value inequality and like their spot at the top of the social and economic pecking order; others are literally too busy struggling to survive to care about political theater. The reason doesn’t matter. The sobering, brutal reality is this: your large neighbor to the south will not continue to be a free and democratic society for much longer at this rate. And unfortunately, that, too, will have implications for your country as well. It probably already has. But at least Canada can be an example and a model for how a democracy can work, even if we ultimately give up on it or experiment with something else for a while. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/22 "2020-02-09T20:13:04Z")
Possibly. Trends tend to move north, though. It turns out our illustrious premier was in attendance at that prayer-breakfast thing, clapping with the rest. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/23 "2020-02-09T20:42:23Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > You’re still acting like what was normal four years ago still is normal. Trump’s acquittal in the Senate has finally put paid to that. > > Barr has said he won’t investigate Trump, and the Senate has said that they’re okay with everything Trump has done so far. So who remains to enforce the law against Trump? > > Is some low-level IRS guy going to oppose the President of the United States, when every legal authority above him has shown that they not only won’t _stop_ Trump from engaging in reprisals, they’ll actually _enable_ him in reprisals? > > The Checks and Balances are gone. Now we’re down to raw power and noble sacrifices. While I agree with the spirit of this post (i.e., that Trump has broken boundary after boundary), the IRS was weaponized by the Nixon and Johnson administrations. Shortly after the 1964, election, Goldwater’s speechwriter Karl Hess got slapped with a “revenge audit”. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/24 "2020-02-09T20:49:55Z")
I think all of democracy everywhere is being (or will be) challenged by sweeping transformations that have been, are now, and will continue to cause dislocation. And these dislocations are the fault lines upon which democracies lie. Our most recent iterations of Democracy took shape during the age when mass communication was introduced and became the way we shared ideas. We were fortunate in that, for the most part, these information gatekeepers and “sharers” valued facts and value shining the light on public servants. Not only was the gatekeeper powerful, but also responsible. In the day and age of social media and satellite/cable TV with hundreds of channels, it’s difficult for responsible journalism to stand out and it’s easy for irresponsible journalism to poison the well. Democracies depend on good input in order for voters to make good choices and select good leaders. I’m not sure 19th and 20th Century constitutions and federal codes are updated enough to respond to this increasingly volatile situation. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/25 "2020-02-10T03:33:08Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s not enough to win; they have to keep winning. They’re in a position where they can’t afford to lose even once. And that’s what makes them extremely dangerous. > > The first step an authoritarian regime takes in destroying democracy is convincing people that there’s no such thing as truth, that all people are equally bad, that nobody has good motives, so fuck worrying about whose intentions are good and whose aren’t. This approach explains Alan Dershowitz’s defense of Trump right down to the final full stop. All politicians are bad, they’re going to act out of self-interest, they’ll sometimes do unethical and illegal things in doing so, and that’s what you accept in a democracy. It’s bullshit, but it’s what a lot of know-nothing voters assume having been bombarded with Oliver Stone and Alex Jones conspiracy theories for decades. > > But it’s the next step when the death of democracy becomes more obvious, and here it is: the authoritarians are going not after the threats below them (voters, concerned citizens, activists, etc); they’re taking out their opposition and their challengers toward the top. **The first way they do that is to take control of the machinery of government - the bureaucracy - and to weaponize it, to use it as a cudgel, as a sledgehammer against enemies. They’re right now fighting to take control of that machinery. That explains the bullshit investigation of McCabe. The threatened investigation of Comey. The massive inter-agency investigation into how the Trump probe even started. They’re taking over the machinery, either by purging them, by forcing them to retire, by firing them outright in humiliating “perp walk” like exits from the White House, or by threatening to prosecute them and making them pay a fair chunk of their life savings to stay out of prison. Shit, they could be murdered in prison “altercations” and they know it.** > > And when that process of taking over the government’s machinery comes into clearer focus, well, that is when they start getting more aggressive. That’s when they building apparatuses that ensure they win elections. That’s also when they start prosecuting political rivals for “crimes” against the state. These things take time, but this is ultimately how it unfolds. It will become more and more obvious, and chances are, people will be standing around, looking at each other, wondering what in the hell to do, knowing that something is terribly wrong but clueless as to how to stop it, and fearful of trying. Pretty much as I said (the bold): > **[Trump admin officials terrified their careers will be ruined by 'vindictive'...](https://www.rawstory.com/2020/02/trump-admin-officials-terrified-their-careers-will-be-ruined-by-vindictive-president-if-they-report-anything-unethical-report/)** > > Calling the atmosphere at the White House Pentagon and State Department "not just chilling but frightening," career government workers now feel they will quickly have their careers ruined by Donald Trump if they so much as report any unethical or... > [@](#): > > With Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI) telling the press, Trump’s “personal insecurities and vindictiveness are making our nation less secure,” before adding, that the president “won’t tolerate people who tell the truth” government workers agreed that Trump has served notice to all of them. Trust me, they’re not just worried about their careers; those who are watching the president and Bill Barr know that their lives could be totally ruined - not just their careers, but their lives. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/26 "2020-02-10T09:03:14Z")
The purge will continue until the whispering stops. > [@asahi](#): > > …Canada can be **an example** and a model for how a democracy can work, even if we ultimately give up on it or experiment with something else for a while. Canada can be **annexed** if The Don thinks it feasible and manufactures an excuse. It will be a bigger land grab than Polk’s annexation of Texas Republic, Oregon Territory, and half of Mexico - YUGE!. But what would happen to the price of maple syrup? ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/27 "2020-02-10T09:17:55Z")
Five tornadoes hit the Washington DC area after Trump fired Vindman and Sondland. Clearly, God is not pleased with Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/28 "2020-02-10T10:19:17Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > The purge will continue until the whispering stops. > Canada can be **annexed** if The Don thinks it feasible and manufactures an excuse. It will be a bigger land grab than Polk’s annexation of Texas Republic, Oregon Territory, and half of Mexico - YUGE!. But what would happen to the price of maple syrup? Trump can\* talk\* about how easy it would be to annex Canada and it’ll have even less credibility then his claims that trade wars are easy to win and that he can pay off the national debt in eight years. His rally audiences will hoot and cheer and that’s all he really wants; praise for the assertion. Following though is for suckers and losers. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/29 "2020-02-10T13:30:49Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > Five tornadoes hit the Washington DC area after Trump fired Vindman and Sondland. Clearly, God is not pleased with Trump. A smiting would be a lot more efficient! Simple, direct, educational… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/30 "2020-02-10T21:46:50Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Would this be legal? I mean wouldn’t there have to be some reason (one extant before 2019) to justify the cost to the government? Or, is there nothing in the US legal system to prevent such retributive action? It is explicitly against the law for Trump to retaliate against these people: > [@](#): > > \*\*18 U.S. Code § 1513. Retaliating against a witness, victim, or an informant \*\* > > (e) Whoever knowingly, with the intent to retaliate, takes any action harmful to any person, including interference with the lawful employment or livelihood of any person, for providing to a law enforcement officer any truthful information relating to the commission or possible commission of any Federal offense, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. > > (f) Whoever conspires to commit any offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy. > > SOURCE: [18 U.S. Code § 1513 - Retaliating against a witness, victim, or an informant | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1513) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/31 "2020-02-10T21:50:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is explicitly against the law for Trump to fire these people: Unfortunately, he can’t be removed from office to face the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/32 "2020-02-10T21:52:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is explicitly against the law for Trump to retaliate against these people: It’s not against the law when **The Messiah** does it. This was proven in the recent impeachment trial. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/33 "2020-02-10T22:42:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is explicitly against the law for Trump to retaliate against these people: Heh. “Law.” Cute. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/34 "2020-02-11T01:09:49Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Canada can be **annexed** if The Don thinks it feasible and manufactures an excuse. It will be a bigger land grab than Polk’s annexation of Texas Republic, Oregon Territory, and half of Mexico - YUGE!. But what would happen to the price of maple syrup? The last thing the GOP wants is 37 million new voters who all expect universal health care. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/35 "2020-02-11T02:03:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Um, you misspelled _“won”_. > > If Soundland attempts to purchase, say, a house, car, whatever, and is shocked to find that his credit is shite, then what? Sondland is wealthy hotelier in his own right. I’m sure he just writes a check for his latest Ferrari. As for the Vindmans: Trump can fuck with their promotions and assignments. These guys are specialists who work in the Pentagon, but they could easily just be reassigned to Afghanistan or Korea or some other garden spot and to billets that are relatively meaningless. How about mess officer in Fort Wainwright, Alaska? While he’d still be a LTCOL, it would be a demotion in terms of duties and responsibilities, which lessens promotion chances. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/36 "2020-02-11T02:18:48Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Sondland is wealthy hotelier in his own right. I’m sure he just writes a check for his latest Ferrari. > > As for the Vindmans: Trump can fuck with their promotions and assignments. These guys are specialists who work in the Pentagon, but they could easily just be reassigned to Afghanistan or Korea or some other garden spot and to billets that are relatively meaningless. How about mess officer in Fort Wainwright, Alaska? While he’d still be a LTCOL, it would be a demotion in terms of duties and responsibilities, which lessens promotion chances. If they withdraw plum assignments that have been made in advance, would that be considered retaliation? I’m not sure if I’m phrasing that right. I listened to Vindman’s testimony. He talked about how he had been accepted into the War College, an elite training program for military officers and he was going sometime this year. It is supposedly a great honor. And I’ve been wondering if they could withdraw that and would it be considered, legally, retaliation? By a military that made specific promises that he would be safe from retaliation. And I’m pretty sure Trump thinks he was FIRED- and he has no idea Vindman still works for the government. And I bet everyone is falling over themselves to keep him from finding out. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/37 "2020-02-11T03:45:58Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The last thing the GOP wants is 37 million new voters who all expect universal health care. Declare English the official language to disenfranchise Quebecois, Puertoricanos, Gullahs, etc. Enroll all Greater Americans in mandatory private health plans, with premiums set inversely to a postal code’s vote for Tramp. This rewards the faithful. What, nobody in the Great North or Puerto Rico voted Tramp? They’ll pay, oh yes they will! Back to purging. So many non-minions remain in the [del]Postal and Civil Services[/del] Deep State\*. Only loyalists deserve those jobs, no matter how incompetent, illiterate, or insane. Honest people who actually know anything can’t be trusted. Kick-em out! - Did an actual Deep State exist, the Oval Office would have a different occupant. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/38 "2020-02-11T09:50:31Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Trust me, they’re not just worried about their careers; those who are watching the president and Bill Barr know that their lives could be totally ruined - not just their careers, but their lives. Not just their lives but their families’ lives - everyone is talking about Vindeman being shown the door but seem to forget his twin brother also lost his job, and his twin never said anything to Congress. WTF? Where’s the outrage? As near as I can tell Yevgeny was fired _solely because he’s Alexander’s brother_. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/39 "2020-02-11T14:10:54Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Sondland is wealthy hotelier in his own right. I’m sure he just writes a check for his latest Ferrari. > > As for the Vindmans: Trump can fuck with their promotions and assignments. These guys are specialists who work in the Pentagon, but they could easily just be reassigned to Afghanistan or Korea or some other garden spot and to billets that are relatively meaningless. How about mess officer in Fort Wainwright, Alaska? While he’d still be a LTCOL, it would be a demotion in terms of duties and responsibilities, which lessens promotion chances. I asked about this in one of the other threads, but how much power does Trump have to influence their assignments? Can he, for example, dictate they be put on latrine duty in Afghanistan? Can he personally veto any promotions or commendations recommended by their superiors? ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2020, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669/40 "2020-02-11T14:24:54Z")
I believe Lt.Crn.Vinneman was going to be transferred anyway to the War College. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vindman-and-sondland-further-retaliation/847669.md?page=3)