# Violation: Showing up VERY late for a multi-party, table reservation dinner **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050 "2009-09-06T08:14:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/121 "2009-09-08T03:36:38Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I’d be willing to _bet_ you that prairie pioneer people brought hostess gifts - a pie, a cake, maybe some lace or something, because I’m sure it was a hell of a lot harder to host a party back then. I was reading one of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books (I think it was Little Town on the Prairie) and one form of party was the “dime social”. Guests brought a dime to give to the hostess, and I believe that the hostess provided tea and snacks. In that same book, Laura made $1.50 a week by sewing shirts, so a dime was 1/15 of her weekly wages. And those were considered good wages, too. Even if there was no stated price on visiting someone, it was widely accepted that one brought something, if one possibly could. It might be a dozen eggs, it might be some butter, it might be any sort of food or commodity. If one was widely known to be barely scraping by, then other people would usually give some staples, to prevent a starvation death. People DID starve to death. I think that BG should have gone out to dinner at the fancy restaurant with only her SO, or maybe her SO, BF, and BF’s SO. She could have either hosted a party at her own place with popcorn, cupcakes, and soda, or gone out to a much more casual place which would have allowed people to breeze in and out as their own needs dictated. Clearly, she chose a restaurant that was too expensive for at least one couple. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/122 "2009-09-08T04:21:46Z")
> [@bathsheba](#): > > For $155 I hope you got to 100% CHOOSE your refill!!1! I lol’d. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/123 "2009-09-08T07:34:50Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I think perhaps 31 is a bit young to expect friends to have the type of disposable income where a couple could afford a $300 dinner. But the OPer is correct that the appropriate thing to do was to decline the invitation altogether. Along with other things, this is not clear, but it seems that the $150 is for dinner for two people, not for one. I’d have to agree that the problem is the Birthday Girl wanting to go out for a more expensive restaurant than what her group of friends want to and are used to. I used to have a friend who made real money while the rest of us in the group were still on our first jobs and not making the same cash. He wouldn’t get that not everyone had the same budget. One of the friends finally told him that they could only meet for coffee. That all said, the math doesn’t work out. There were 10 people who RSVP’ed so there should have been at least 11 people at the table, or 12 if Birthday Girl has an SO, who would be expected to be there and wouldn’t RSVP. Unless, of course, the Clueless Birthday Girl RSVP’ed herself saying she and her SO would attend. This still wouldn’t explain why one of the Guests was called Friend No. 10, as there aren’t 10 friends, only nine max, (assuming that the girlfriend of the girlfriend of Friend #1 is called a “friend” and not an accessory) and I don’t understand why GF of GF of F#1 is involved if it’s all too expensive. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/124 "2009-09-08T14:11:19Z")
> [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > Unfortunately, where I live (NoVA/DC area), there are no such restaurants. Now, where I’m originally from (central Massachusetts), it’s more like you described. Yes there are. I just took someone to [Vermillion](http://www.vermilionrestaurant.com/) in Old Town last week and had two appetizers, two entrees a good bottle of wine for under that. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/125 "2009-09-08T14:23:34Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Yes there are. I just took someone to [Vermillion](http://www.vermilionrestaurant.com/) in Old Town last week and had two appetizers, two entrees a good bottle of wine for under that. OK, I’ll give you Old Town, but that’s the only area around here that’s like that. For me, though, that’s at least a 45 minute drive. It’s easier for me to get to downtown DC than it is to Old Town. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/126 "2009-09-08T14:40:37Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I was reading one of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books (I think it was Little Town on the Prairie) and one form of party was the “dime social”. Guests brought a dime to give to the hostess, and I believe that the hostess provided tea and snacks. In that same book, Laura made $1.50 a week by sewing shirts, so a dime was 1/15 of her weekly wages. And those were considered good wages, too. > > Even if there was no stated price on visiting someone, it was widely accepted that one brought something, if one possibly could. It might be a dozen eggs, it might be some butter, it might be any sort of food or commodity. If one was widely known to be barely scraping by, then other people would usually give some staples, to prevent a starvation death. People DID starve to death. > > I think that BG should have gone out to dinner at the fancy restaurant with only her SO, or maybe her SO, BF, and BF’s SO. She could have either hosted a party at her own place with popcorn, cupcakes, and soda, or gone out to a much more casual place which would have allowed people to breeze in and out as their own needs dictated. Clearly, she chose a restaurant that was too expensive for at least one couple. And that is sort of what I’m talking about. The idea of a “dime social” - commonly accepted by people who couldn’t afford to throw a party - isn’t a hostess gift, its a fee to get into the party. Miss Manners would not approve. (We still do it, i.e. a cup fee at a kegger - because when you are 22 you can’t afford beer for all your friends. But its still a rule breaker in the etiquette books). Potlucks (I’ll bring a pie) are a staple of that kind of entertaining, but you don’t bring food and expect it to be served at someone else’s dinner party. Emily Post published her book in 1922…which codified the rules of American etiquette. Its an upper class, East Coast, derivied from the British rules sort of etiquette because that’s what Mrs. Post knew - but that really mainstreamed and popularized a lot of the ‘rules.’ ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/127 "2009-09-08T14:40:39Z")
To **DudleyGarrett** Well then it is kind of your own fault. 🙂 Lots of very good restaurants in Old Town, Del Ray, and, to a lesser extent Clarendon/Courthouse, that are just as good as their DC rivals and cheaper. It is worth the extra drive. You mentioned the steak houses earlier. As I hav esaid here before, if you are from around here, and eating in Morton’s/Ruth’s Chris rather than Ray’s, you are either on an expense account or need mental help. Tried Dairy Godmother yet? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/128 "2009-09-08T14:50:14Z")
For what it is worth, the Emily Post Institute doesn’t have a problem with organizing a restaurant dinner without paying for each of the attendees. > [@](#): > > #4: Group Restaurant Invitations > > Many people ask, how do I invite people to a restaurant, but make it clear that they each pay their own way? It’s all in the phrasing. You need to make it clear that you are the coordinator, not the host. Don’t send invitations, rather call and say, “ John, would you and Ellen like to meet us at Chez Pierre on Saturday night? We are asking Michelle and Eric, too. We though it would be fun for the six of us to have a night out together. Just let me know if you can come and I’ll make the reservation. By posing your request this way, it’s clear that you are just the social coordinator and not the host, so everyone should understand that they are paying for their own meal. > > However, if you had said, “We’re hosting a dinner at Chez Pierre,” or sent a written invitation with that wording, then your guests would be right to assume that dinner is on you. [Link.](http://www.emilypost.com/everyday/rude_situations.htm#four) Count me in on the “shouldn’t have waited for others to show up to begin ordering” and “if you think the restaurant is too expensive, don’t go” crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/129 "2009-09-08T15:09:36Z")
> [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > Unfortunately, where I live (NoVA/DC area), there are no such restaurants. Now, where I’m originally from (central Massachusetts), it’s more like you described. That’s total and utter bullshit. I’ve probably spent more on dinner than the vast majority of people would think is sane, and even I know you’re full of it. There are excellent restaurants in any major metropolitan area of the US that provide spectacular dining experiences for under $100 per person. Here in Atlanta we have a couple of James Beard Award winners who would laugh you out of their kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/130 "2009-09-08T15:12:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > For what it is worth, the Emily Post Institute doesn’t have a problem with organizing a restaurant dinner without paying for each of the attendees. Perhaps, but there is a very important statement that requires unpacking: > [@](#): > > By posing your request this way, it’s clear that you are just the social coordinator and not the host, **so everyone should understand that they are paying for their own meal.** [Emphasis added.] That “everyone” includes, of course, the social coördinator herself–in the OP’s situation, the Birthday Girl. It is not appropriate for a person to ask, regardless of how proximate in time to the anniversary of her birth, that her friends treat her to dinner at an expensive restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/131 "2009-09-08T15:17:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > For what it is worth, the Emily Post Institute doesn’t have a problem with organizing a restaurant dinner without paying for each of the attendees. [Link.](http://www.emilypost.com/everyday/rude_situations.htm#four) Which is exactly what we have been saying. The last sentence in your quote: > [@](#): > > However, if you had said, “We’re hosting a dinner at Chez Pierre,” or sent a written invitation with that wording, then your guests would be right to assume that dinner is on you. applies to the OP: “To celebrate her 31st birthday, Birthday Girl invites her friends to a white-tablecloth reservation-only restaurant …” You invite, you pay. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/132 "2009-09-08T15:20:53Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Which is exactly what we have been saying. The last sentence in your quote: > applies to the OP: “To celebrate her 31st birthday, Birthday Girl invites her friends to a white-tablecloth reservation-only restaurant …” > > You invite, you pay. I think everyone is talking past each other. We don’t know the exact way that the Birthday girl phrased things, but I think it’s quite obvious that nobody expected her to pay. If that is the case, and I see nothing in the OP to suggest it isn’t, then you have no real gripe here. That being said, I wouldn’t pay for her butt either. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/133 "2009-09-08T15:21:44Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > That “everyone” includes, of course, the social coördinator herself–in the OP’s situation, the Birthday Girl. It is not appropriate for a person to ask, regardless of how proximate in time to the anniversary of her birth, that her friends treat her to dinner at an expensive restaurant. I agree. My comment is more in response to those fainting southern belles in this conversation who have their petticoats all in a bunch that someone had the temerity organize a dinner without paying for everyone invited. It sounds like the dinner would have been a lot more fun for everyone involved if the birthday girl politely indicated that the dinner was dutch, those who weren’t into going to a pricey restaurant declined, and the host emphasized that nobody should wait for the stragglers before ordering. Others who wanted to join the birthday celebration without paying $40 for an entree could then join for drinks at 9:30, since everyone would have been done eating by that time. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/134 "2009-09-08T15:42:57Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > That’s total and utter bullshit. I’ve probably spent more on dinner than the vast majority of people would think is sane, and even I know you’re full of it. There are excellent restaurants in any major metropolitan area of the US that provide spectacular dining experiences for under $100 per person. > > Here in Atlanta we have a couple of James Beard Award winners who would laugh you out of their kitchen. It’s not bullshit, ass. Apparently you don’t know Northern Virginia, at all. I’m a restaurant fanatic and the majority of the restaurants around here are chains. If it’s not a chain AND considered to be a great meal, it’s outrageously expensive. Of course, I can drive 45 minutes to Old Town Alexandria where there are lots of small bistros and the like, but that’s the only area around here that’s like that. Most everything is very new and every neighborhood has their own strip mall with whatever chain you can think of. The chains are the only restaurants than can afford the outrageous rents. It’s not uncommon to see non-chain restaurants last a year and close, even if they’re doing a good business. Washington, DC has three neighborhoods one, not looking to get mugged, can go: Adams-Morgan (good places to eat, but very expensive), Georgetown (same) and Northwest (near the Mall, and restaurants here are usually either very expensive (Fogo de Chao, Smith and Wollensky) or total shitholes (Ollieburger)). The Post Office building is a very cool-looking mall food court. I’ve been to and lived in lots of metropolitan areas and this one is very unique. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/135 "2009-09-08T15:45:23Z")
> [@villa](#): > > To **DudleyGarrett** > > Well then it is kind of your own fault. 🙂 > > Lots of very good restaurants in Old Town, Del Ray, and, to a lesser extent Clarendon/Courthouse, that are just as good as their DC rivals and cheaper. It is worth the extra drive. You mentioned the steak houses earlier. As I hav esaid here before, if you are from around here, and eating in Morton’s/Ruth’s Chris rather than Ray’s, you are either on an expense account or need mental help. > > Tried Dairy Godmother yet? Not yet… we’re due for a bite to eat in Alexandria. Then a drink or two at Pat Troy’s! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/136 "2009-09-08T15:49:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree. My comment is more in response to those fainting southern belles in this conversation who have their petticoats all in a bunch that someone had the temerity organize a dinner without paying for everyone **invited**. Again: the word “invited” **necessarily** means that the invitees are guests, who, by definition, do not pay for their participation. Using the word “invited” means that the person is not _organizing_ it; she is _hosting_ it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/137 "2009-09-08T15:52:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree. My comment is more in response to those fainting southern belles in this conversation who have their petticoats all in a bunch that someone had the temerity organize a dinner without paying for everyone invited. > > It sounds like the dinner would have been a lot more fun for everyone involved if the birthday girl politely indicated that the dinner was dutch, those who weren’t into going to a pricey restaurant declined, and the host emphasized that nobody should wait for the stragglers before ordering. Others who wanted to join the birthday celebration without paying $40 for an entree could then join for drinks at 9:30, since everyone would have been done eating by that time. Indeed. And in all likelihood, the Birthday Girl wouldn’t have ended up paying for herself anyhow. What would happen is that an SO or another friend would, upon the arrival of her check, say something to the effect of “Oh, Jane, don’t worry about that.” Jane would protest, of course, saying “No, really, Steven, spending the evening with all of you was a gift enough.” Steven would insist, and Jane would relent (“Well, you must let me treat you sometime soon.”) Steven may later on, after the event, collect reimbursements from other guests, _but only if they agreed to pitch in prior to the expense’s being incurred._ You may not unilaterally charge your fellow partygoers for your magnanimity; however, if your friend asks you if you’d like to go in on a birthday dinner for a mutual friend, it’s a nice thing to do to say “Yes!”. Manners! ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/138 "2009-09-08T15:54:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree. My comment is more in response to those fainting southern belles in this conversation who have their petticoats all in a bunch that someone had the temerity organize a dinner without paying for everyone invited. > > It sounds like the dinner would have been a lot more fun for everyone involved if the birthday girl politely indicated that the dinner was dutch, those who weren’t into going to a pricey restaurant declined, and the host emphasized that nobody should wait for the stragglers before ordering. Others who wanted to join the birthday celebration without paying $40 for an entree could then join for drinks at 9:30, since everyone would have been done eating by that time. So you are agreeing with the southern belles, that if BG had any sort of etiquette clue, things would have been better. If she “invited guests” then she should have paid; if she was the “organizer,” she did a really crappy job of it. Either way, 'twas a cluster all 'round and it started with her (which does not excuse the obnoxious and rude behavior of some of her guests). Y’all have a nice day, y’hear? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/139 "2009-09-08T15:57:10Z")
Why, bless your heart. (D&R) ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050/140 "2009-09-08T15:57:59Z")
> [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > It’s not bullshit, ass. > > Apparently you don’t know Northern Virginia, at all. I’m a restaurant fanatic and the majority of the restaurants around here are chains. If it’s not a chain AND considered to be a great meal, it’s outrageously expensive. > > Of course, I can drive 45 minutes to Old Town Alexandria where there are lots of small bistros and the like, but that’s the only area around here that’s like that. Most everything is very new and every neighborhood has their own strip mall with whatever chain you can think of. The chains are the only restaurants than can afford the outrageous rents. It’s not uncommon to see non-chain restaurants last a year and close, even if they’re doing a good business. > > Washington, DC has three neighborhoods one, not looking to get mugged, can go: Adams-Morgan (good places to eat, but very expensive), Georgetown (same) and Northwest (near the Mall, and restaurants here are usually either very expensive (Fogo de Chao, Smith and Wollensky) or total shitholes (Ollieburger)). The Post Office building is a very cool-looking mall food court. > > I’ve been to and lived in lots of metropolitan areas and this one is very unique. So when you said Northern Virginia & DC, you weren’t including Alexandria in that? Incredible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violation-showing-up-very-late-for-a-multi-party-table-reservation-dinner/509050.md?page=8)