# Violent Criminals Owning Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306 "2020-01-12T13:26:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/61 "2020-01-13T02:51:14Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > So slapping someone while being assaulted in several ways and nearly having his eyes gouged out makes one a “violent criminal.” > > You are aware of the post that kicked off this discussion, yes? You’re saying it was ok for her to beat the crap out of him to her hearts content? And he was obligated to sit there and take it? > > ‘Cos that sounds like what you’re saying. We’re only hearing his side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/62 "2020-01-13T02:51:59Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > So slapping is cool, but punching isn’t? Only domestic violence above a certain threshold (as defined by you) should count? > > Bullshit. I’m not going to defend either practice, but you really don’t see a difference between [this](https://youtu.be/uC-KBfRMxpI?t=26) and [this](https://youtu.be/uC-KBfRMxpI?t=120)? One thing of note, when I watch shows like Live PD and someone mentions that their SO hit them, one of the first questions is ‘open fist of closed fist’. I don’t know how much that plays into things, but it clearly makes a difference or they wouldn’t be asking. Also, I’m not suggestions slapping is okay, or that just because someone _only_ slapped their SO that it’s no big deal. I’m just pointing out that it’s different. Like the difference between me getting angry at you and throwing a playground ball at your face (we all know that doesn’t feel good) vs me getting angry and throwing a rock at your face. Neither is okay, but they are different. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/63 "2020-01-13T03:01:08Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > So slapping someone while being assaulted in several ways and nearly having his eyes gouged out makes one a “violent criminal.” > > You are aware of the post that kicked off this discussion, yes? You’re saying it was ok for her to beat the crap out of him to her hearts content? And he was obligated to sit there and take it? > > ‘Cos that sounds like what you’re saying. Suddenly all the Reichwing dudes who like to scream, “LOCK HER UP!” on the word of a Nazi conman are passionate believers in the rights of the accused. As long as it’s a man accusing a woman. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/64 "2020-01-13T03:06:32Z")
> [@margin](#): > > We’re only hearing his side of the story. yes, and that is all the information we have. everything else is conjecture. > [@margin](#): > > Suddenly all the Reichwing dudes who like to scream, “LOCK HER UP!” on the word of a Nazi conman are passionate believers in the rights of the accused. > > As long as it’s a man accusing a woman. none of this has anything to do with what we’re discussing. y’know what? fuck this place. if we’re going to descend into the same rigid, black/white with-us-or-against-us crap the republicans and russians want us to, then you can have it. I’m out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/65 "2020-01-13T04:12:51Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > So slapping someone while being assaulted in several ways and nearly having his eyes gouged out makes one a “violent criminal.” > > You are aware of the post that kicked off this discussion, yes? You’re saying it was ok for her to beat the crap out of him to her hearts content? And he was obligated to sit there and take it? > > ‘Cos that sounds like what you’re saying. Given that the person in question never tried to correct the record, even after being arrested and charged, lends credence to the fact that he’s not telling the whole story or too stupid to own firearms anyway. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/66 "2020-01-13T04:31:09Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/67 "2020-01-13T04:56:55Z")
> [@atimnie](#): > > It would be just as stupid to take away someone’s guns for getting involved in a bar fight. So, not stupid at all, is what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/68 "2020-01-13T05:01:28Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I guess I’d say you misunderstood, or at the very least, read too far into it. Flyer implied that people (in positions of power, I assume) can make mistakes and officials can be corrupt. > > I understand that you were using Flyer’s logic to get from officials can be corrupt to it’s okay to rob a liquor store if you’re the victim of a corrupt official, but I disagree that the logic is clear. In fact, I’m again asking you to explain how you got from point A to point B. I can understand why the suggestion of reach people eating poor people’s babies, but this one isn’t clicking. The logic is that someone was convicted of robbing a liquor store, but never actually did so. They were only convicted because corrupt officials lied/cheated/whatever. Clearer? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/69 "2020-01-13T05:03:24Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > So all convicted murderers are murderers and all convicted rapists are rapists and the [Innocence Project](https://www.innocenceproject.org/) is just a front for criminal organizations whose goal is to get their felons back into the public. > > Moron. If only there was an accepted judicial avenue to challenge convictions that are viewed as unjust. What does the Innocence Project use, jailbreaks? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/70 "2020-01-13T05:19:01Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > The amendments are certainly not in my wheelhouse, but isn’t this where the 5th amendment comes into play? It states that no one shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law. IOW, if I understand it correctly, the government CAN deprive you of life, liberty or property after a trial. How else could people be put in prison? > But, again, this isn’t my strong suit. Also, I know there’s all kinds of cases about this, I was just making the point that, as I understand it, these rights can be taken away by a court of law. There is due process, in the initial case. Firearm prohibition is simply a guaranteed addition to whatever other punishment is decided on. > [@Ruken](#): > > Gun ownership by someone who committed a misdemeanor 15 years ago hardly strikes me as anything to get excited about, as far as danger to me, my loved ones, or random strangers is concerned. Given that roughly 1 in 7 victims of domestic violence even report the crime, it’s not unheard of for abusers to never face charges. > [@atimnie](#): > > _Un-fucking-believable. The insanity of gun rights fundies has no bounds._ > Asshole, have you ever heard of the concept of supporting a cause you’re not a part of? I support gay rights, even though I’m straight. I support civil rights, even though I’m not black. And I support reasonable gun rights, even though I’m not a gun nut. And reasonable gun rights does not include taking away some’s guns for domestic abuse incidents. It would be just as stupid to take away someone’s guns for getting involved in a bar fight. There are, as has been mentioned before, shades of grey, but people on both extremes don’t want to see that. They see it as black and white, with one side being right, and the other being wrong. The real world doesn’t work like that. Thousands of women killed by their partners each year disagree with your “outrage”. > [@jz78817](#): > > yes, and that is all the information we have. everything else is conjecture. Aside from, ya know, a domestic violence conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/71 "2020-01-13T05:25:58Z")
Rather than getting tied up in knots about hypotheticals about liquor stores, or accusing people of being too tied up with the letter of the law, i think the better explanation for what happened here is that you should never plead guilty to an offence without getting legal advice about all of the implications of a guilty plea, such as firearms prohibitions. Once you plead guilty and have a criminal record, that’s the significant fact. Whether you might have had a defence based on the other person’s actions is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/72 "2020-01-13T05:27:14Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > There are nuances, shades of gray, extenuating circumstances, etc. The Lautenberg Amendment is a spectacular overreach and always has been. The stories are myriad about people who call the cops on their significant other only to find out that crying wolf on domestic violence just to win a fight results in prosecution, and a plea bargain in a DV case removes gun rights. It is a particular problem in the military, because that extends to service firearms, and if you can’t carry one at any time you’re out. > > Each case should be judged on its own merits(or lack thereof), instead of a blanket proscription. If we take the subject of the OP at his word, it’s one of those outlying cases that perhaps ought not result in a right lost. In any case, none of that constitutes support for the (scare quotes) “violent criminals” you’re talking about, any more than supporting the legalization of marijuana means I support “drug dealers”. This kind of thing happens to cops as well as military members. The thing I don’t like about the law is the word “misdemeanor”. An act that removes someones civil rights permanently should be a felony. Lautenberg, in my opinion, was just another way to make more and more people ineligible to own firearms. Next it will be someone convicted of OWI, then shoplifting, etc… BUT…it is the law right now even if we hate it, and **FoieGrasIsEvil** intentionally lied on a federal form and possessed a firearm when he had prior knowledge he was prohibited from having one. ANY conviction of DV, including Disorderly Conduct DV, does invalidate ones legal ability to own a firearm. The burden of knowing whether or not one can own one is upon each of us, not a BATFE agent knocking at our door. All the anti-gun zealots on these boards clamoring for more and more gun laws ought to be appalled at his actions. Hell, look at all the shit I got for posting I’d more than likely not give a fellow officer a citation for a minor traffic offense. This is 2 felonies were talking about (actually 4 as he could be charged both state and federally). Then, to be so stupid as to post this stuff online. Duh!:smack: I used to like reading some of **FoieGrasIsEvil** posts. But I’ve completely lost respect for them. And for any gun control advocate that isn’t giving him grief! ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/73 "2020-01-13T06:16:44Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Given that the person in question never tried to correct the record, even after being arrested and charged, lends credence to the fact that he’s not telling the whole story or too stupid to own firearms anyway. People take the fall for things all the time just to get them done and over with. Often people will admit to something (or not defend themselves against a charge) because they’re under the impression that taking their (or, rather not their) lumps means the whole thing is over today instead of spending months in court and who knows how much in legal fees. As for buying the gun(s), I can’t speak to that. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > The logic is that someone was convicted of robbing a liquor store, but never actually did so. They were only convicted because corrupt officials lied/cheated/whatever. > > Clearer? Yes, that does make more sense, but it’s backwards. What you’re saying, if I’m reading it right is that someone was wrongfully convicted (or even faced fabricated charges) for robbing a liquor store that they never robbed, by a corrupt official. Saintly Loser said “it’s okay to rob a liquor store if you’re the victim of corrupt officials.”, which, the way I’m reading it, is saying if you’re the victim of a corrupt official, you can then go rob a liquor store. As I stated earlier, I simply can’t follow the logic on that. Regardless of the corrupt official part, in your case, the suspect did not rob a liquor store, in SL’s hypothetical, they did. In either case, we’re still butting up against the fact that two wrongs don’t make a right. Both issues have to be dealt with separately. You can’t commit a crime because a crime was committed against you (moreso when it involves an uninvolved 3rd party). ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/74 "2020-01-13T07:21:44Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Yes, that does make more sense, but it’s backwards. What you’re saying, if I’m reading it right is that someone was wrongfully convicted (or even faced fabricated charges) for robbing a liquor store that they never robbed, by a corrupt official. Saintly Loser said “it’s okay to rob a liquor store if you’re the victim of corrupt officials.”, which, the way I’m reading it, is saying if you’re the victim of a corrupt official, you can then go rob a liquor store. As I stated earlier, I simply can’t follow the logic on that. > > Regardless of the corrupt official part, in your case, the suspect did not rob a liquor store, in SL’s hypothetical, they did. In either case, we’re still butting up against the fact that two wrongs don’t make a right. Both issues have to be dealt with separately. You can’t commit a crime because a crime was committed against you (moreso when it involves an uninvolved 3rd party). He never said that. His/her quote: > [@](#): > > Of course not. But by that logic, well, maybe that dude convicted of sticking up the liquor store was the victim of corrupt officials – we should be fine with letting him have a carry permit, right? In **SaintlyLoser’s** hypothetical, someone has been CONVICTED of robbing a liquor store. Never was it stated that the criminal ACTUALLY robbed a liquor store. You’ve read FAR more into it than the original statement. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/75 "2020-01-13T07:27:06Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > People take the fall for things all the time just to get them done and over with. Often people will admit to something (or not defend themselves against a charge) because they’re under the impression that taking their (or, rather not their) lumps means the whole thing is over today instead of spending months in court and who knows how much in legal fees. > As for buying the gun(s), I can’t speak to that. And as it stands, he’s been convicted of domestic violence, no matter what his reasons for accepting that. Full stop. That is the only certain fact we know about the situation. Do people plead down and give up for mundane shit? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean we don’t let them off with only part of their punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/76 "2020-01-13T07:38:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The thing I don’t like about the law is the word “misdemeanor”. An act that removes someones civil rights permanently should be a felony. Lautenberg, in my opinion, was just another way to make more and more people ineligible to own firearms. Next it will be someone convicted of OWI, then shoplifting, etc… What’s the appreciable difference in a crime that results in a 11 month sentence and a 12 month one, besides the label given to it? How about all domestic violence crimes are automatically felonies, full stop? Would that assuage your oh-so-serious concern? Given that Lautenberg has been law for over 20 years, and we haven’t even started to slide down that slippery slope, I hope you didn’t buy stock in sleds. > [@](#): > > All the anti-gun zealots on these boards clamoring for more and more gun laws ought to be appalled at his actions. Hell, look at all the shit I got for posting I’d more than likely not give a fellow officer a citation for a minor traffic offense. This is 2 felonies were talking about (actually 4 as he could be charged both state and federally). “All these people that were upset that I pick and choose which laws can be broken because they’re my friends should be OUTRAGED because REASONS.” > [@](#): > > I used to like reading some of **FoieGrasIsEvil** posts. But I’ve completely lost respect for them. And for any gun control advocate that isn’t giving him grief! What should we do in MPSIMS? Rage and call him names and all take warnings for your righteous indignation? He knows he’s a fucking idiot, what he did was absolutely wrong, and he barely escaped a much harsher situation. We COULD pit him for it, but I guess your unease isn’t enough for you to do it yourself, only for you to chide and chastise the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/77 "2020-01-13T07:50:30Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I see. So if my wife attacks me and I defend myself by punching her she is a victim of domestic violence and as an offender I lose my rights. No nuance, no shades of gray whatsoever, right? That doesn’t sound like something **MsRobyn** would do in the first place… ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/78 "2020-01-13T07:55:29Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/79 "2020-01-13T08:54:51Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > STFU. this has nothing to do with what I said. I’m asking certain people why- given the information we have- they feel they can declare the person in question a “violent criminal.” > > maybe it just makes them feel better about themselves. I think it’d be naive to discount the possibility that some people feel they can declare it because FGE is a man and he hit a woman, and that, to them, no other information is relevant. It’s hardly an uncommon stance in wider society. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306/80 "2020-01-13T10:27:18Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > But I’ve completely lost respect for them. And for any gun control advocate that isn’t giving him grief! Gun control advocates can have nuanced views might not map with what you expect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-criminals-owning-guns/846306.md?page=5)