# Violent Game, Violent Life? any real proof? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963 "2003-12-09T17:39:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/21 "2003-12-12T01:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > \*\*Especially because it countered an argument that absolutely nobody was making. \*\* FPS = videogames and the whole media, Cain and Abel = the human violence, from the very beginning. The expressions work for me. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/22 "2003-12-12T03:35:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grousser \* > \*\*FPS = videogames and the whole media, > Cain and Abel = the human violence, from the very beginning. > > The expressions work for me. \*\* While I am not surprised it would work for you, it has no intellectual validity at all. Nobody, but nobody, in this thread, or in the entirety of the world, has ever argued that video games are the sole causation of murder. Now, if he had instead made a witty quip about How many people has \ killed, then he would have been addressing the argument (once again, an argument noone in this thread is advancing) that video games cause people to kill other people. Instead, he switched it up, and, by invoking the first murder, was addressing the point that ALL murders must be caused by video games. It’s a confusion of causation and SOLE causation. Do you understand now why it is a faulty analogy? But hey, who am I to get in the way of a nice soundbite. ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/23 "2003-12-12T04:42:21Z")
Ok, I got it. But it’s still funny. 🙂 The only thing I agree with is that nowadays _some_ people thinks that _some_ of the murders and criminal/violent behavior is caused by videogames or violence in the media. I’ve heard it some time ago and I guess I’ll be hearing it in the future. For those, the argument (not the quoted one by **rjung** but mine, too: there was violence and criminal behavior in humankind long ago before those factors existed) is valid. I’ve always been fighting that accusations. Roger Ebert once said: “any viewer capable of being influenced by such silly gags would have to be deeply disturbed already”, in his [Idle Hands](http://suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_reviews/1999/04/043004.html) review. And John C. Dvorak said in some column buried in my mind, from PCMagazine: “they (kids) know it’s not blood, it’s only a bunch of pixels crossing the screen”, referring (obviously) to the blood in videogames. Those are valid arguments, too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/24 "2003-12-12T04:54:37Z")
What video games did Hitler play? All I know is that I’ve been playing violent video games for year. I love shoot 'em ups. The more violent the better. I also love Tarantino movies. I’ve never committed a real act of violence in my life (unless you count grade school fist fights). Isn’t it possible that violent assholes just like violent video games? I don’t see that there’s necessarily a causal effect. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/25 "2003-12-12T06:09:12Z")
While it isn’t directly a scientific study of videogames and violence, Dave Grossman wrote a book called [on killing](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316330116/qid=1071208176//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/002-8510509-6991227?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) regarding what causes men and women on the battlefield to actually fire their weapons with the intention of killing rather than simply causing noise. S.L.A. Marshall, the head of the US Army historical division during World War II, conducted extensive interviews of infantry companies in Europe and the Pacific immediately post action and found that on average only 15 to 20 percent of the riflemen would fire their weapons at the enemy. Among the suggestions to increase the firing rate of individual riflemen was for more realistic training to cause desensitization, firing at human shaped targets rather than bull’s-eyes, which was introduced. Similar studies conducted during Korea and Vietnam saw a dramatic increase in firing rates, going up to 95 percent in a study by R.W. Glenn in Vietnam. Grossman sees unhealthy parallels in desensitization in First Person Shooters, which I don’t completely agree with, but it is good food for though. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/26 "2003-12-12T10:28:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > **The authors of the study indicate that there should be more concern given to video game violence than other violent media for three reasons. First, many violent video games involve the player identifying with the aggressor, for example the player is Tommy Vercetti. In movies and television, the identification is not so blatant. Second, video games are, by their nature, require more active participation, as opposed to the passive role taken in movie watching. Finally, the authors think the addictive nature of video games, as well as their reinforcement characteristics, enhance the learning and performance of aggressive scripts. So, yes, the dangers of violent video games seem to be more serious than that of other types of media.** The above also fit equally well (I would argue, moreso) for pencil-and-paper roleplaying games, but the anti-D&D ruckus died quite a while ago when absolutely no link between them and violence was found. Seems to be the same thing here, to me. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/27 "2003-12-12T10:36:24Z")
Grossman’s work is certainly interesting stuff, and definitely deeper than the “murder simulator!” soundbites the media reduced it to for practical paper-moving reasons. The essential flaw in drawing parallels, though, is this: it’s entirely possible I’ve become desensitized to clicking mouse buttons at people. I have a hunch that if the armed forces dropped live-fire training at people-silhouettes in favor of a pure Doom-based Basic that at-the-enemy-not-over-the-enemy fire percentages would sharply plummet. ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/28 "2003-12-12T20:26:46Z")
Just to add some more facts to this thread: Cain was playing [Sin](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004T9C9/qid=1071260778/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-vg/103-7714882-7007035?v=glance&s=videogames&n=468642). Hitler, oddly enough, was playing Duke Nukem 3D. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/29 "2003-12-13T00:31:58Z")
From **Dio** > [@](#): > > Isn’t it possible that violent assholes just like violent video games? I love that. If we could someone how study that possibility I would be intrigued. **Hamlet** a quick question. You seem to be very much pro violent game = violent behaviour. Is this something you have witnessed or do you just think the work done on this subject by the experts was enough to convince you? Im not asking to attack you, I am just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/30 "2003-12-13T16:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dob \* > \*\ ***Hamlet** a quick question. You seem to be very much pro violent game = violent behaviour. Is this something you have witnessed or do you just think the work done on this subject by the experts was enough to convince you? Im not asking to attack you, I am just curious. \*\* Personally, I’m more swayed by the studies and the work done in the area. It seems to me that they are now starting to show what seems to be a common sense idea regarding the desensitization of Americans to violence. As to personal experience, my mother was horribly maimed by some guy named Flynn Taggert, a level 25 rogue, who recently broke out of a demon dimension, and was armed with a chainsaw arm, a shotgun, and a BFG. Rumor has it, he was under orders from some mafia don who was actually an alien demon. I don’t think that influences my viewpoints though. Seriously though, I’m a gamer too. I think GTA III and Vice City are great, fun games. I just got done playing a bit of on-line Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and, although I haven’t done it in a while, I was pretty fair at Unreal Tournament. From personal experience, if I’ve sat down and played GTA for an hour, and then get behind the wheel, I do tend to be a bit more agitated, however I have yet to pull an idiot out of his car, steal it, and then run him over for good measure just cause he cut me off. I don’t think these violent games cause otherwise normal people to go kill their family, but if you ask me if I think FPS’s had a modicum of influence on idiotic kids who shoot up schools, well, I think they do. Not nearly enough influence to require regulation, but enough that people should be aware of it, especially parents. Anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Psychoticpsymon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b5a626/32.png) [@Psychoticpsymon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychoticpsymon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/31 "2003-12-13T20:34:20Z")
The only real life to entertainment danger is in music. Like Nickelback, hearing Nickelback makes me want to kill Nickelback. ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/32 "2003-12-14T01:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamlet \* > **I don’t think these violent games cause otherwise normal people to go kill their family, but if you ask me if I think FPS’s had a modicum of influence on idiotic kids who shoot up schools, well, I think they do.** Oh, now I understand your point of view. There’s no need to hate video games to think that they can influence assholes. I agree with that point, but then regulations must be aimed not to kids, but to any age range of videogamers stupid enough for being influenced. That will be the hardest part. My 10 year old son has been playing videogames with me since he was 5 or 6. He loves GTA3 and VC, the same with Quake, Dungeon Keeper and all kind of violent stuff, and I find him pretty smart to know that he can’t just get out to streets and kill people just for the pleasure. I’ve taught him that there’s nothing wrong in being bad in fiction, not in real life (he he). But sometimes, when I’ve had to drive in my car after a long GTA3 journey, I’ve been in the edge of colliding other cars. In my mind, I’ve felt, only for nanoseconds, that I forgot that I’m in real life. Luckily enough, my mind uses to response well, but it’s not hard for me to think there must be some assholes who turn those nanoseconds in minutes. Mmm, no joke with your nick (but the thinking came from it), I suppose when Shakespeare presented his plays, there must have been some critics who thought that they were influencing some criminal behavior. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/33 "2003-12-14T05:22:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drastic \* > \*\*Grossman’s work is certainly interesting stuff, and definitely deeper than the “murder simulator!” soundbites the media reduced it to for practical paper-moving reasons. > > The essential flaw in drawing parallels, though, is this: it’s entirely possible I’ve become desensitized to clicking mouse buttons at people. I have a hunch that if the armed forces dropped live-fire training at people-silhouettes in favor of a pure Doom-based Basic that at-the-enemy-not-over-the-enemy fire percentages would sharply plummet. \*\* Very true. I’m not a very big fan of FPS’s, though I did play a lot of Doom back in the day as well as coin operated FPS’s in arcades. As I said, I don’t completely agree with Grossman’s conclusions, but after reading _on killing_ I had a few “wow, what are we doing to ourselves” moments walking though malls and watching kids at video arcades. I’m most certainly **not** in favor of banning or censoring video games in any way, whether they are FPSs or not, but it does deserve a though and some contemplation of where we are as a people and the overall glorification of violence in the media and society in general. Media reflections who and where we are, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/34 "2003-12-14T08:06:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dissonance \* > As I said, I don’t completely agree with Grossman’s conclusions, but after reading _on killing_ I had a few “wow, what are we doing to ourselves” moments walking though malls and watching kids at video arcades. If it’s anything like the arcades around here, we’re raising a generation of kids with a _terrific_ sense of rhythm and who can bust a move at the drop of a hat. 🙂 (Me, I’m more of a powerslide-through-the-blistering-Arctic-winds-to-shave-another-0.02-seconds-off-the-clock kind’a guy, myself 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Psychoticpsymon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b5a626/32.png) [@Psychoticpsymon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychoticpsymon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/35 "2003-12-14T19:21:26Z")
You know, I blame SSX: Tricky for making me a champion snowboarder who rides through unreal tracks in front of millions of screaming fans (Who, by coincidence, are great to bounce off of after a well timed jump) in precariously placed box seats. Oh… wait… _looks down_ Oh yeah, I’m a teenager sitting in his basement in his pajamas while snow piles up around his house. And I don’t even OWN a snowboard. Hmmmmm, where does the thin line between reality and fiction end? \ ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/36 "2003-12-15T17:24:37Z")
from **Hamlet** : > [@](#): > > Anything else? Did you just get done playing a violent game? Your whole post seemed angry!! Anyhow, I would also like to point out(since it was mentioned a few times) that currently Video Games are regulated. Every game has a content rating by the ESRB. I am all for this as it gives parents who are not gamers at least an idea of what the game contains. > [@](#): > > My 10 year old son has been playing videogames with me since he was 5 or 6. He loves GTA3 and VC… Not to comment on your parenting skills but im kinda suprised you let a 10yr old play VC!! ---
**Author:** ![Strychnos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Strychnos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strychnos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/37 "2003-12-24T23:33:27Z")
After playing GTA Vice City five hours straight and going to work, I experience moments when I really feel it would be sound and proper to smash the brains of police officers passing by. I have been playing video games for only a couple of months and before that, I never felt anything like this, ever, despite consuming the most violent stuff in print and on film. Not to mention intensive RPGing for 8 years. To me, anyone who thinks that violent video games have no ill effect on people who already have some latent psychological issues doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/38 "2003-12-25T08:12:40Z")
Sounds like you should see a therapist, **Strychnos**. If a video game can lead you to feel it would be “sound and proper” to smash the brains of police officers, then you’re already on thin ice. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/39 "2003-12-25T14:06:53Z")
The only effect video games have on me is a slight irrational impulse to jump any change in elevation after playing platformers for several hours. ---
**Author:** ![Crimson\_Teardrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a5b964/32.png) [@Crimson\_Teardrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crimson_Teardrop)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963/40 "2004-01-01T22:02:55Z")
if people couldn’t take their anger out shooting someone in the head 666 times on a first person shooter then how would we all de-stress?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/violent-game-violent-life-any-real-proof/217963.md?page=3)