# Virgin Mary Apparitions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309 "2008-11-24T19:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/61 "2008-11-25T12:28:04Z")
> [@pixelfreak](#): > > My main point was that my reason to hesitate is that christianity paints such a horrible punishment for those who don’t believe. I think it’s a cheap shot but if it was true, well… it would be hell. heh. “Christianity” is a very broad brush. AFAIK, Catholics do not believe you have to believe in their dogma to be saved. What does Islam teach? It may be that their punishments for non-believers are much worse and from that perspective you may be better off joining Islam. Or maybe just join all world religions just in case. You can never be totally sure. But believing in a religion because of reported miracles is just silly. You can see any number of magicians performing “miracles” on stage and that does not mean they can truly perform miracles; it only means I do not know how they do it. How do they saw a sexy assistant in half and then put her together again? Millions of people have seen that done. I guarantee that if something really, truly, unusual and unexplainable had happened the world would be all over it. Stories tend to be greatly embellished as they are passed along. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/62 "2008-11-25T12:30:07Z")
> [@pixelfreak](#): > > Can apparitions of the Virgin Mary be explained away? > > I think these two are among the hardest to dispute: > She appeared to three kids in Fatima, Portugal and they announced a miracle would occur to make people believe and just as predicted, the “miracle of the sun” happened. > She appeared over a church in Zeitoun, Egypt. This one was photographed: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKmwj29zH\_8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKmwj29zH_8) > > (I was raised as a catholic but I’ve been leaning towards atheism lately. This holds me back) First of all if the sun came closer to the earth(let alone spinning) the earth would be burned up. Mass hypnosis and hallucinations can produce a lot of things. In each apperation she looked different, and how did they know it was the virgin Mary? It is only the mind of the person supposedly seeing things and then others want it to be so it is a form of Hypnosis. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/63 "2008-11-25T12:38:59Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I thought that Catholic doctrine wasn’t completely condemning of non-believers if they behave in an ethical manner? Last I looked it was. Among other things, because it seems quite absurd to condemn someone to Hell on grounds of “but he wasn’t a believer!” when he never had a choice to be one (I know, I know, the same reasoning applies to homosexuality, but please notice that the RCC’s official position on that is that it’s not a sin to be a homosexual, “only” to have non-reproductive sex and this applies to heteros as well). Also, I’m not sure what the Catechism specifically says about this and don’t have one handy, but there’s also the concept of the Infinite Mercy, which some (again, don’t know what the official position is) Catholics reckon means that God will. Always. Forgive. Everybody. and the only way you hie yourself to Hell is by rejecting that forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/64 "2008-11-25T14:48:49Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > After all the truth is that the Virgin Mary has only appeared to fools. To fully agree with this I’d have to filter it a bit more. Only fools AND people who believe in the Virgin Mary. Muslim fools don’t see the Virgin Mary, nor do Buddist fools, nor do all the other sorts of fools. A fool who lives in the deepest darkest Africa and had never heard of Jesus and his gang would never see the Virgin Mary. But then the Virgin Mary, being white and all, wouldn’t hang around in such places, in any case. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/65 "2008-11-25T15:11:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > (I know, I know, the same reasoning applies to homosexuality, but please notice that the RCC’s official position on that is that it’s not a sin to be a homosexual, “only” to have non-reproductive sex and this applies to heteros as well). The official position is that sex should only take place within a marriage and that marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman. Sex does not have to be reproductive, just that sex has to be open to reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/66 "2008-11-25T15:16:55Z")
I’m wondering if LonesomePolecat will come back and explain why the image he presented as evidence is labeled as a drawing. I mean, I can make a drawing of Cthulhu rising from R’lyeh, that doesn’t mean it actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/67 "2008-11-25T15:24:00Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > To fully agree with this I’d have to filter it a bit more. Only fools AND people who believe in the Virgin Mary. Muslim fools don’t see the Virgin Mary, nor do Buddist fools, nor do all the other sorts of fools. A fool who lives in the deepest darkest Africa and had never heard of Jesus and his gang would never see the Virgin Mary. But then the Virgin Mary, being white and all, wouldn’t hang around in such places, in any case. The funny thing is that other cultures see just as many “miraculous” manifestations of their own beliefs. India is especially ripe with all kinds of apparitions and miracles relating to Hindu gods. Buddhists will see Buddhist entities. Indigenous tribal people will see indigenous tribal gods, new age believers will have conversations with ancient Atlanteans, etc. Even in ancient times, people saw manifestations of ancient religions. Ancient Egyptians saw Isis, Romans saw Jove, Greeks saw Apollo. It’s amazing that no one ever sees anything but the religion they already believe in. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/68 "2008-11-25T16:29:28Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The Virgin Mary has been seen: > > - [on a computer screen](http://www.thetoque.com/religion/20060301/image_of_virgin_mary_appears_on_computer_screen.html) Well, that one WAS a joke, but it got me thinking. I have an old composite monitor. If I rig it so that it receives a single image of Mary for a few months the phosphors will get burnt in so that a shadow of the image will remain, even when it is turned off. Put that on eBay with a starting bid of, oh, five grand… Perhaps I’ve said too much. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/69 "2008-11-25T16:34:10Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I mean, I can make a drawing of Cthulhu rising from R’lyeh, that doesn’t mean it actually happened. That’s it. [You get eaten LAST](http://www.geocities.com/neverclan/c/cthulhu.html). ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/70 "2008-11-25T19:01:38Z")
> [@pixelfreak](#): > > But if these miracles are true then Jesus was the Messiah and I’m on track to burn in hell which is discomforting. Why? What about an unnatural image of an ancient woman implies that Jesus even existed? Why does a glowing ghost hovering over a church automatically make people fear for their very soul? Even if you could show beyond a doubt that not only did Jesus and Mary exist, but they’ve spent the past 2000 years haunting churches and hills and cheese sandwiches, that still wouldn’t lend one iota of support to the hypothesis that you even have a soul, much less that it is in danger of burning in hell for eternity. Why is it that when someone becomes convinced of the veracity of a small, irrelevant part of a religion’s cannon, swallowing all the rest of its wildly implausible stories naturally follows? It’s almost like they were itching to believe it all along, but only lacked the barest justification. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/71 "2008-11-25T20:03:30Z")
> [@pixelfreak](#): > > I just said that if the miracles are true then christianity would be true because then the children of Fatima would have been right about their prediction of the miracle making their claims more believable. For the third time. how in the world can anything be identified as an image of the Virgin Mary, considering that no one in living memory knew what she looked like? It’s a simple question, really. Stop ducking it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/72 "2008-11-25T20:06:49Z")
And even if the OP was convinced the apparitions were genuine, why would he turn back to Catholicism? Wouldn’t it make more sense to convert to the Coptic church? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/73 "2008-11-25T20:20:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And even if the OP was convinced the apparitions were genuine, why would he turn back to Catholicism? Wouldn’t it make more sense to convert to the Coptic church? Or to Islam since it was in Egypt. Maybe it was not the Virgin Mary after all but some Islamic virgin. They are big on virgins in Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/74 "2008-11-25T20:24:35Z")
If it was in Egypt, it was probably Isis. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/75 "2008-11-25T20:51:56Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Or to Islam since it was in Egypt. Maybe it was not the Virgin Mary after all but some Islamic virgin. They are big on virgins in Islam. Yeah, but there’s a freakin’ bazillion of them in heaven. Stands to reason a few would slip out every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/76 "2008-11-25T20:53:10Z")
Maybe, but if it were really Isis wouldn’t it look more like this?: [http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Isis3.JPG](http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Isis3.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/77 "2008-11-25T20:59:30Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Maybe, but if it were really Isis wouldn’t it look more like this?: [http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Isis3.JPG](http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Isis3.JPG) Heh. Seriously, though, some of the early Christian Madonna imagery was based on Isis/Horus iconography. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/78 "2008-11-25T21:00:41Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Maybe, but if it were really Isis wouldn’t it look more like this?: [http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Isis3.JPG](http://www.swanshadow.com/images/Isis3.JPG) Has anyone seen Isis any more than they’ve seen the Virgin Mary? In other words, we don’t know what Isis would actually look like, either. Considering that, as someone noted above, particular cultures see their own religious figures in these phenomena, I would think that would prove they’re not some objective religious vision. They’re something else, maybe mass hysteria, maybe earthquake lights, maybe St. Elmo’s fire, and people project their own beliefs and images on them. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/79 "2008-11-25T21:56:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nitpick: Am I the only one who thinks the word “apparition” is more suitable for a ghost story than a religious-miracle story? “Apparition” just means “appearance” and it comes from the same Latin root. She made an appearance. She appeared. Like a cameo. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/80 "2008-11-26T02:17:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Considering that, as someone noted above, particular cultures see their own religious figures in these phenomena, I would think that would prove they’re not some objective religious vision. They’re something else, maybe mass hysteria, maybe earthquake lights, maybe St. Elmo’s fire, and people project their own beliefs and images on them. Or maybe Vorlons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309.md?page=5)