# Virgin Mary Apparitions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309 "2008-11-24T19:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/81 "2008-11-26T03:29:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Or maybe Vorlons. Geek. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/82 "2008-11-26T03:45:19Z")
I think geeks see Princess Leia. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/83 "2008-11-26T08:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **jayjay** : Both of those photos look like bad film development tricks. It wouldn’t be the only time that Mary had appeared to look like a photographic negative. That also reminds me of the image on the Shroud of Turin. The image of the man on that shroud is also like a photo image. Who knows? Maybe there is even an as yet unknown scientific explaination for why the “spirit” (religious usage) of a deceased person would appear as a negative image. I do recall that scientific studies of the eye movements of the children who saw Mary in the former Yugoslavia documented that they were in sink. > [@](#): > > **dropzone** : That’s the problem with supernatural phenomena. They are impossible; otherwise they wouldn’t be supernatural. You are the one calling it “supernatural.” I guess there was a time when people thought an eclipse of the sun was supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/84 "2008-11-26T15:48:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Muslim fools don’t see the Virgin Mary, nor do Buddist fools, nor do all the other sorts of fools. Most of the witnesses at Zeitoun, Egypt, were Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/85 "2008-11-26T15:50:00Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Most of the witnesses at Zeitoun, Egypt, were Muslims. How did they know it was the Virgin Mary? How could they possibly know what she looked like? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/86 "2008-11-26T15:56:35Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Take a look at the photos on [this](http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm) page. How about the two about a third of the way down, with the caption ‘The above two photos show luminous heavenly beings shaped like doves and flying over the church.’? I most certainly don’t see doves, and that’s only a cross if you want it to be. From what I’ve read, a lot of times the light was indistinct, or dimmer, or like those two photos. > So a church, which has something to gain by all this, and cops in Egypt in the 1970s investigated this. Yeah, I’m thinking it wasn’t the most scientific or thorough investigation ever. There is a huge amount to gain here for the church, so anything that might show what they’re claiming is in it’s favor. That these silent, random, often totally amorphous images is really a divine manifestation is a ridiculously big claim, and requires ridiculously big evidence. A single 30 year old bad photograph isn’t going to do it. The fact remains that those two photos are of distinctly human figures. I do not claim that it is a divine manifestation. In fact, I don’t know what to make of it at all. I do, however, insist that something happend in Zeitoun which is not easily explained by conventional science. If you’re going to insist that fakery was involved, you need to produce definite evidence of fakery. A general, unsubstianted charge without reference to specific facts is just hand waving. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/87 "2008-11-26T16:02:48Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > You are the one calling it “supernatural.” I guess there was a time when people thought an eclipse of the sun was supernatural. No, miracles are, BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION, “supernatural.” Otherwise they wouldn’t be miraculous. [QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Most of the witnesses at Zeitoun, Egypt, were Muslims. [/QUOTE] And [Muslims venerate Mary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Virgin_Mary) “as a righteous woman. She is mentioned more times in the Qur’an than in the entire New Testament. She is the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an…” Islam wasn’t created in a cultural vacuum, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/88 "2008-11-26T16:16:28Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Most of the witnesses at Zeitoun, Egypt, were Muslims. Muslims believe in the Virgin Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/89 "2008-11-26T16:17:54Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The fact remains that those two photos are of distinctly human figures. I do not claim that it is a divine manifestation. In fact, I don’t know what to make of it at all. I do, however, insist that something happend in Zeitoun which is not easily explained by conventional science. If you’re going to insist that fakery was involved, you need to produce definite evidence of fakery. A general, unsubstianted charge without reference to specific facts is just hand waving. Apparently you missed it when it was shown that your “photos” are actually drawings. ETA, you are the one who wants to assert magic. You’re the one that needs to prove it. We’ve already provided natural explanations. People were imagining they saw things in some lights caused by natural phenomena. Or maybe the lights were faked. Doesn’t matter. It wasn’t magic and there aren’t any photos of humans. Not much to explain there. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/90 "2008-11-26T16:28:05Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > If you’re going to insist that fakery was involved, you need to produce definite evidence of fakery. A general, unsubstianted charge without reference to specific facts is just hand waving. Accccctually, this is one of those cases where “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Because a visitation of the BVM is scientifically extremely unlikely, while people misinterpret natural phenomena, and others produce fake “spirit photos” to prey on their desire for the miraculous, all the time, you, as an intelligent person, need to ask yourself which is the more likely explanation. Then you look at those photos and see the shape of the aparition closely follows the shape of the BVM as shown in countless highly-conventionalize and stylized statues of the BVM and the idea that it is a double exposure should start gnawing at your brain. That the Shroud of Turin resembles more a painting of Jesus made in the Gothic period, when the shroud first appeared, than an actual human being argues against its authenticity, too. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/91 "2008-11-26T19:48:52Z")
I’m beginning to suspect the original poster is an apparition. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/92 "2008-11-26T20:22:31Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The fact remains that those two photos are of distinctly human figures. Fact? Hardly. They’re vaguely human proportioned. I don’t see any facial features, limbs, hands with 5 fingers, etc. You know, normal things that you would associate with being human. You’re seeing what you want to see. > [@](#): > > I do not claim that it is a divine manifestation. In fact, I don’t know what to make of it at all. I do, however, insist that something happend in Zeitoun which is not easily explained by conventional science. If you’re going to insist that fakery was involved, you need to produce definite evidence of fakery. A general, unsubstianted charge without reference to specific facts is just hand waving. I don’t insist that fraud is involved. It’s just one of the explanations that makes more sense than ‘It’s god’. It’s certainly something that would need to be examined long before any divine claims could be accepted. I don’t know what the phenomenon is, but you don’t either. You’re just seeing what you want to see. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/93 "2008-11-26T21:15:03Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The fact remains that those two photos are of distinctly human figures. Don’t you mean the **drawings** are of distinctly human figures? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/94 "2008-11-26T21:50:45Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Why would she look like an amorphous white blob, something that could be confused with non-supernatural things, as opposed to, say, a giant extremely detailed speaking face in the sky? It was actually an appearance by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. People get the two confused so easily. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/95 "2008-11-26T22:16:26Z")
When I get on an airplane I am required to produce two picture IDs just to prove who I am and even then sometimes they question me further. And a white blob appears in the sky and we know it was the Virgin Mary? Why? I am sorry, I will accept nothing less than two picture IDs with full name and mailing address. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/96 "2008-11-26T22:39:12Z")
I am an atheist. There is no evidence of any God (and anyway some religions are mutually contradictory). I believe completely there is an invisible force called gravity, which permanently exists wherever there are masses. I will believe in gravity no matter what you say. The entire population of this planet believes in gravity. 🆒 If God exists, He could **easily** persuade me (and the rest of the planet 😉 ) that He exists. Unsupported claims that an unidentified shape ‘appeared’ in the sky and that it must represent a human and that this human was the mother of the Son of God and that this proves a specific God exists do not impress me. At all. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/97 "2008-11-27T00:38:27Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Apparently you missed it when it was shown that your “photos” are actually drawings. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Lemur866] Don’t you mean the **drawings** are of distinctly human figures? [/QUOTE] Before this particular horse canters too far outside its stable, I should point out that my observation was that one of the images enthusiastically endorsed by **LonesomePolecat** as authentic photographic evidence instead appears to be a drawing. While I in no way find the other images being proffered remotely convincing, and quite happily suspect at least one as being probably outrightly fraudulent, the others are probably still technically photographs. The bold claims made about Zeitoun by **LonesomePolecat** and the various websites smack of much-distorted hearsay, n-th generation retellings that have long since dropped the factual details one would look for in a verifiable account and the exaggerations of the _a priori_ convinced. All the more reason to insist on getting the details right when we’re being sceptical about the same claims. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/98 "2008-11-27T04:23:02Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Most of the witnesses at Zeitoun, Egypt, were Muslims. And here I am sitting in Yemen claiming that Muslims don’t know about Jesus and Mary.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/99 "2008-11-30T12:58:29Z")
> [@pixelfreak](#): > > Not sure what you mean… was that me preaching? > I just said that if the miracles are true then christianity would be true because then the children of Fatima would have been right about their prediction of the miracle making their claims more believable. My main point was that my reason to hesitate is that christianity paints such a horrible punishment for those who don’t believe. I think it’s a cheap shot but if it was true, well… it would be hell. heh. > > I’ll look into more debunking articles. I just thought a lot of opinions disregard some of the information which made me think the apparitions could be true. The miracles didn’t come true, Russia wasn’t converted. Lucy was tucked away in a cloistered convent until her death, The press never was able to interview her. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Punintentional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de0a6/32.png) [@Punintentional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punintentional)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/100 "2008-11-30T14:00:20Z")
Uhhh fools, these are apparitions of Jezebel. How long is it going to take someone to respond to the question of “HOW THE HELL CAN YOU KNOW THIS IS THE “VIRGIN” MARY?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309.md?page=6)