# Virgin Mary Apparitions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309 "2008-11-24T19:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/101 "2008-11-30T15:36:03Z")
> [@Punintentional](#): > > Uhhh fools, these are apparitions of Jezebel. > > How long is it going to take someone to respond to the question of “HOW THE HELL CAN YOU KNOW THIS IS THE “VIRGIN” MARY?” Being insulting in Great Debates is not a good way to encourage useful discussion, (as well as being a cheap ticket off the SDMB if you insist on taking it too far). The question has been answered multiple times by multiple posters in several different ways: It might be a hoax; It might be a delusion. No one can “know” that the appearances, (if they occurred), are actually those of the BVM because: we do not know that there was actually an appearance (as opposed to a trick of light or simply doctored photgraphs and news events); we do not know that the appearance was of Mary. If you happen to find yourself in a place and time where Mary (or anyone else) appears to you, you will have to make your own judgment as to whether you actually saw something or suffered a delusion and, if you did see something, whether it was really a messenger from God, a messenger from the devil, or a practical joke from space aliens. There is no way to “know” whether an apparition is of any particular being–particularly a being whom no one living has ever seen or described. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/102 "2008-12-01T14:23:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There is no way to “know” whether an apparition is of any particular being–particularly a being whom no one living has ever seen or described. Then why call it that, regardless of whether it is a delusion, etc.? Why refer to Virgin Mary Apparitions at all? Whether or not it’s a hoax, what justification is there in calling it an appearance by Mary, rather than Rachel, or Ahinoam, or anyone in particular at all? > [@](#): > > The question has been answered multiple times by multiple posters in several different ways: > > It might be a hoax; > It might be a delusion. That doesn’t answer the question “How do you know it’s Mary?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/103 "2008-12-01T14:30:09Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Then why call it that, regardless of whether it is a delusion, etc.? Why refer to Virgin Mary Apparitions at all? Whether or not it’s a hoax, what justification is there in calling it an appearance by Mary, rather than Rachel, or Ahinoam, or anyone in particular at all? You’d have to ask the people who have called such phenomena appearances of whomever why they have chosen to do so. It is not something I have ever done. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > That doesn’t answer the question “How do you know it’s Mary?” The first paragraph establishes that the question is without meaning, which should be close enough for this situation. The answer was then continued for two more paragraphs to cover other possible considerations. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/104 "2008-12-01T14:45:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You’d have to ask the people who have called such phenomena appearances of whomever why they have chosen to do so. I have. Several times. In this thread. And your comment notwithstanding, it has not been answered. > [@](#): > > The first paragraph establishes that the question is without meaning, which should be close enough for this situation. The answer was then continued for two more paragraphs to cover other possible considerations. I’m not sure what you mean by “the first paragraph,” but if someone says “I just saw the Virgin Mary,” The question “How do you know it was her?” is most certainly \*not \*without meaning. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/105 "2008-12-01T15:29:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “the first paragraph,” but if someone says “I just saw the Virgin Mary,” The question “How do you know it was her?” is most certainly \*not \*without meaning. If they are deluded, their response will be no more pertinent or real than their initial observation. At any rate, I am obviously unable to help, further, with that question. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/106 "2008-12-01T15:50:19Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If they are deluded, their response will be no more pertinent or real than their initial observation. It seems to me that a person could be deluded into thinking that he saw an apparition of, say, Donald Trump, and still give an accurate description of what he thought he saw that would jibe with what is known about Trump’s appearance. So while we might wonder whether he actually saw anything real, he would be on firm ground in his \*identification \*of what he \*thought \*he saw, and his response would be pertinent indeed. So the question I am trying to get these posters to answer is : Leaving aside the question of whether this apparition is real, what is it about it that causes you to identify it as the Virgin Mary? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/107 "2008-12-01T16:36:47Z")
And to carve a finer point on it, the question I am asking pertains to the photographs, not to a personal account. What is it about the photographs that necessarily identifies them as being of an apparition of the Virgin Mary, rather than any other person? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/108 "2008-12-01T17:22:25Z")
Because the guy who drew that one wanted it to look like her? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/109 "2008-12-02T00:53:25Z")
As I understand it, the children at Fatima (according to their accounts) did take measures to confirm that who they were seeing was Mary. They started from the position that it was a supernatural being of some sort, meaning either Heavenly or Hellish. If a Heavenly being, then one can presumably take the apparition’s word on her identity, since Heavenly beings presumably wouldn’t lie. And they procured holy water from a church and sprinkled it on the apparition, without any apparent harm or discomfort to her, thus confirming that she was not Hellish. Yes, of course there are potential holes here, but it is a process to confirm what they were seeing, and a pretty good one for having been devised by children. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/110 "2008-12-02T01:24:24Z")
Actually it’s completely lame. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/111 "2008-12-02T02:17:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As I understand it, the children at Fatima (according to their accounts) did take measures to confirm that who they were seeing was Mary. They started from the position that it was a supernatural being of some sort, meaning either Heavenly or Hellish. If a Heavenly being, then one can presumably take the apparition’s word on her identity, since Heavenly beings presumably wouldn’t lie. And they procured holy water from a church and sprinkled it on the apparition, without any apparent harm or discomfort to her, thus confirming that she was not Hellish. Yes, of course there are potential holes here, but it is a process to confirm what they were seeing, and a pretty good one for having been devised by children. That story does not appear in the wikipedia page (which itself reads more like the product of fantasy than as factual reporting). The whole things sounds, how could I put it?.. Supernatural? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/112 "2008-12-02T02:57:53Z")
Oh Lord, this is one of my pet peeves, the “Virgin in a cheeto” or “Christ in a water-stain” phenomenon. It takes a certain mind set to fall victim to such nonsence. A recent example I liked was this: [http://www.startribune.com/local/34369289.html](http://www.startribune.com/local/34369289.html) Actually kinda cool, lol, and puts an interdenominational spin on it for a change. But I do think such experiences CAN represent authentic spiritual phenomenon. (sorry, for all my skepticism, I DO accept that possibility) OK, so who am I to question the “Jesus in a grilled cheese” sighting by some Mexican Catholic lady? No-one. But the whole Fatima thing is much more complex and fascinating, regardless of whether one sees it as a miracle or an ET event or mass hysteria. I honestly think humans DO have legitimate spiritual experiences, and they also hallucinate based on their religious programming and it can be difficult to tell the difference. (but Jesus in a tortillia always gives ME a clue :D) If Mary existed (and I think she did) she was a non-descript Jewish woman. Her son was a pretty basic Jewish kid/man. I don’t buy the whole “virgin birth” tripe, nor do I buy into the whole “salvation through faith/being saved” line. Jesus was, imo, a great avatar like Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed. He came here to live a life and show us what WE are capable of. Hey, I’m the son of God, guess what? So are YOU! As usual, we ignored the message and killed, then worshipped, the messenger. Oy VEY! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/113 "2008-12-02T19:49:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Actually it’s completely lame. No, that’s unfair. They were were ignorant, to an extent we can barely imagine, children. I think they did a pretty good job on their own. If a portrait of Mohamed appeared on a Nacho Cheese Dorito, would a jihad be declared on the Frito-Lay company? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/114 "2008-12-02T21:56:55Z")
The amount of ignorance, gullibility and plain stupidity in the world is just astounding. > [@](#): > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN2319603620080423](http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN2319603620080423) > > Police in Congo have arrested 13 suspected sorcerers accused of using black magic to steal or shrink men’s penises after a wave of panic and attempted lynchings triggered by the alleged witchcraft. > > Reports of so-called penis snatching are not uncommon in West Africa, where belief in traditional religions and witchcraft remains widespread, and where ritual killings to obtain blood or body parts still occur. > > Rumors of penis theft began circulating last week in Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of Congo’s sprawling capital of some 8 million inhabitants. They quickly dominated radio call-in shows, with listeners advised to beware of fellow passengers in communal taxis wearing gold rings. > > Purported victims, 14 of whom were also detained by police, claimed that sorcerers simply touched them to make their genitals shrink or disappear, in what some residents said was an attempt to extort cash with the promise of a cure. Hey! Who shrank my penis? ---
**Author:** ![sskrok56](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@sskrok56](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sskrok56)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/115 "2010-12-08T07:11:12Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > In 1977, at Trinity Episcopal Church in Shamokin, PA, there was supposedly a vision of Jesus on the altar cloth. My mother and aunt packed the 6-year-old me up and drove to Shamokin from Altoona to see this altar cloth. Both my aunt and my mother were whispering to each other as they knelt at the altar rail about seeing his face and how miraculous it was. > > I saw nothing. I couldn’t make the shadows on the altar cloth look like ANYTHING coherent…definitely not Jesus. I couldn’t figure out why everyone got to see Jesus but me. I realized many years later that it was because everyone else was seeing what they wanted to see, and I was too young to really have that “ability”…I was pretty much stuck in reality. I hadn’t developed the basic human ability to twist my perception of reality in a preferred direction. > > While I did eventually gain that human ability, it never really turned in the direction of religion. I think that visit to the “miracle altar cloth” innoculated me against falling completely into religious belief. I went through the Catholic motions until I was out of my parents’ house, then broke away from that, having had doubts throughout my childhood and adolescence. I dabbled in a lot of different religions, from Buddhism to Wicca to some form of personal Christianity, but I’m pretty much what Bill Maher calls “apatheistic”…I don’t know if there’s a god…and I don’t really care. Much like Pierre-Simon Laplace, I have no need of that hypothesis. I have a picture of that apparition, i saw a news broadcast and was curious so i drove down to see it. I didn’t see anything for a long time then after about an hour I saw what looked like a womens face.i was trying to see if there was the face of Christ so i wasn’t expecting that. later there was an announcement that people were seeing the face of Mary. After a while I saw a different face and then another and another. If you look at the picture you will see 5 different faces are there all the time all interwoven.Now I don’t know whose faces they are or how anyone else would know who they were but I guess considering the nature of where they are appearing one might assume they were Christ and Mary and other biblical persons. I am not sure how to post the picture here but will try. if I can’t do that go to my facebook page , I have posted the picture there. the original was a slide I had made into an 8x10. I then took 5 pictures of that picture and posted them. there are also demonic looking faces below the altar in the black vertical stripes which are easy to see although I never saw them when I was in the church. When I look at the picture now the faces are so obvious that it seems almost incredible that others might not see anything. they jump out at you. my facebook page is steven skrok,i am the only one so its easy to find > **[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150331349985790&set=a.10150331348050790.581089.684265789)** > **[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150331350015790&set=a.10150331348050790.581089.684265789)** ---
**Author:** ![sskrok56](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@sskrok56](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sskrok56)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/116 "2010-12-08T07:19:08Z")
the apparition in shamokin pa I have a picture of that apparition, i saw a news broadcast and was curious so i drove down to see it. I didn’t see anything for a long time then after about an hour I saw what looked like a womens face.i was trying to see if there was the face of Christ so i wasn’t expecting that. later there was an announcement that people were seeing the face of Mary. After a while I saw a different face and then another and another. If you look at the picture you will see 5 different faces are there all the time all interwoven.Now I don’t know whose faces they are or how anyone else would know who they were but I guess considering the nature of where they are appearing one might assume they were Christ and Mary and other biblical persons. I am not sure how to post the picture here but will try. if I can’t do that go to my facebook page , I have posted the picture there. the original was a slide I had made into an 8x10. I then took 5 pictures of that picture and posted them. there are also demonic looking faces below the altar in the black vertical stripes which are easy to see although I never saw them when I was in the church. When I look at the picture now the faces are so obvious that it seems almost incredible that others might not see anything. they jump out at you. my facebook page is steven skrok,i am the only one so its easy to find > **[Log in or sign up to view](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...1089.684265789)** > > See posts, photos and more on Facebook. > **[Log in or sign up to view](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...1089.684265789)** > > See posts, photos and more on Facebook. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/117 "2010-12-08T11:54:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Accccctually, this is one of those cases where “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Because a visitation of the BVM is scientifically extremely unlikely, while people misinterpret natural phenomena, and others produce fake “spirit photos” to prey on their desire for the miraculous, all the time, you, as an intelligent person, need to ask yourself which is the more likely explanation. Then you look at those photos and see the shape of the aparition closely follows the shape of the BVM as shown in countless highly-conventionalize and stylized statues of the BVM and the idea that it is a double exposure should start gnawing at your brain. > > That the Shroud of Turin resembles more a painting of Jesus made in the Gothic period, when the shroud first appeared, than an actual human being argues against its authenticity, too. The strange thing about the Shroud of Turin is the fact that (according to the Bible writer) there was at least 3 cloths, the head cloth was folded and in a different place; that would mean the image should have been clearer on the head cloth, but for some reason wasn’t kept, and the scripture mentions the cloths.Not just one singular one! I correspond with the man who studied the cloth, he says he is not Christian,but didn’t answer my questions of how it got on one cloth when there were more than one mentioned in the scripture! ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/118 "2010-12-08T18:27:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > In 1977, at Trinity Episcopal Church in Shamokin, PA, there was supposedly a vision of Jesus on the altar cloth. My mother and aunt packed the 6-year-old me up and drove to Shamokin from Altoona to see this altar cloth. Both my aunt and my mother were whispering to each other as they knelt at the altar rail about seeing his face and how miraculous it was… Ha! I have relatives from there. I remember visiting when this was going on. My mom and aunt went to see it. My mom was extremely religious and wanted to take part in the miracle. Her sister and she prayed and looked at the cloth for a long while. Finally my mom looks at her sister and says “Do you know what it looks like to me?” Her sister looks and says “Your poodle?” They had to keep from laughing during the miracle because they both saw an image of our dog. I’m not sure what that has to do with this thread, but I just thought I’d share. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/119 "2010-12-08T23:06:13Z")
Zombie apparitions! ---
**Author:** ![Hold\_Fast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58f4c7/32.png) [@Hold\_Fast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hold_Fast)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309/120 "2010-12-08T23:10:19Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How can anyone possibly know what she looked like? She wears a nametag when she appears to people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virgin-mary-apparitions/474309.md?page=7)