# Virginia Dopers: Constitutional amendment on the ballot: "Right to work" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592 "2016-10-24T14:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/21 "2016-10-25T16:40:06Z")
Are corporations that donate to political campaigns also political organizations? Lots of organizations, whose primary purpose is economic, donate money to politicians. But that’s not their purpose. Neither General Motors or the United Auto Workers are political organizations. A political organization is something like the National Rifle Association or the American Association of Retired People. These are lobbying organizations whose primary cause is political. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/22 "2016-10-25T16:47:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Judging by your comments it looks like you’d be fine with forcing union membership on someone as a condition of employment. Is that correct? If so how do you rationalise that? If not…what are you arguing about? I don’t think the government should get involved. There shouldn’t be laws requiring everyone has to join a union. And there shouldn’t be laws prohibiting closed shops either. Keep the government out of it and let people negotiate what’s to their best advantage. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/23 "2016-10-25T16:49:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are corporations that donate to political campaigns also political organizations? > > Lots of organizations, whose primary purpose is economic, donate money to politicians. But that’s not their purpose. Neither General Motors or the United Auto Workers are political organizations. If General Motors spent months laying the groundwork and had a campaign to elect \_\_\_\_, I’d probably call them political too. I think of AFL-CIO as the lobbying arm of unions, much like the NRA-ILA is the lobbying arm of the NRA (you might find it surprising, but the NRA does other things besides lobby Congress, things like training, education, competitions, etc) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/24 "2016-10-25T16:51:15Z")
And let me go beyond this one issue to the broader topic: what are your views on conditions of employment? Do you oppose them in general? Do you feel people are entitled to work without having to accept any conditions of employment? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/25 "2016-10-25T17:33:16Z")
It’s interesting how they call this a “right to work law” whereas in fact it’s a “right to be unemployed or work at minimum wage with no benefits law”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/26 "2016-10-25T17:35:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s interesting how they call this a “right to work law” whereas in fact it’s a “right to be unemployed or work at minimum wage with no benefits law”. It’s really a right-to-work-without-being-forced-to-join-a-union law. I’m pretty sure they don’t actually outlaw benefits, or being paid more than the minimum wage. I base this on my personal experience of receiving both benefits and a salary above minimum wage in my right-to-work state. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/27 "2016-10-25T18:52:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s really a right-to-work-without-being-forced-to-join-a-union law. I’m pretty sure they don’t actually outlaw benefits, or being paid more than the minimum wage. I base this on my personal experience of receiving both benefits and a salary above minimum wage in my right-to-work state. Nope. Most people in right to work states who want to work can’t, and when they can, it’s at minimum wage without benefits 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/28 "2016-10-25T19:10:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think the government should get involved. There shouldn’t be laws requiring everyone has to join a union. And there shouldn’t be laws prohibiting closed shops either. Keep the government out of it and let people negotiate what’s to their best advantage. So you do support closed shops. Surely a better solution is a level playing field. One where being a member of a union is neither a barrier nor condition of employment. How does a ban on a closed shop prevent anyone from taking advantage of a union if they wish to do so? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/29 "2016-10-25T19:18:26Z")
Because a Union negotiates benefits and pay for all the employees. If the Union gets a 5% pay increase and a better Dental plan, for example, why shouldnt all the employees who benefit pay dues? The only reason we have these laws is because Unions, traditionally support the Democrat party, and thus the GOP will do anything they can to undercut unions- such as bankrupting the USPS. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/30 "2016-10-25T19:21:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And let me go beyond this one issue to the broader topic: what are your views on conditions of employment? Do you oppose them in general? Do you feel people are entitled to work without having to accept any conditions of employment? Having agreed conditions of employment are an excellent thing. I’m all for them in general. That’s what the original point of unions were. The ability of workers to organise and better their conditions of employment and strengthen their hand. The test, as always, is one of reasonableness. Making mandatory membership of a union a condition of employment is a backward step and unreasonable. I also notice that in you previous comment you said > [@](#): > > There shouldn’t be laws requiring everyone has to join a union. And there shouldn’t be laws prohibiting closed shops either. but don’t say anything about laws that give people the right to join a union, do you think government should stay out of that too? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/31 "2016-10-25T19:27:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because a Union negotiates benefits and pay for all the employees. If the Union gets a 5% pay increase and a better Dental plan, for example, why shouldn’t all the employees who benefit pay dues? If the union negotiated better terms for its members then surely that is attractive enough to make others join. Why on earth would you seek to mandate it? If they choose to remain outside of the union and have a slightly worse contract or negotiate their own deal then how can that be a bad thing? I appears that I’m the one advocating the greater freedom and liberty here and I’m from that notorious social experiment called Europe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/32 "2016-10-25T19:29:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If the union negotiated better terms for its members then surely that is attractive enough to make others join. Why on earth would you seek to mandate it? > > If they choose to remain outside of the union and have a slightly worse contract or negotiate their own deal then how can that be a bad thing? > > I appears that I’m the one advocating the greater freedom and liberty here and I’m from that notorious social experiment called Europe. I dont think you understand how Unions and Union contracts work. When a Union negotiates, it gets better pay for \*all \*(non-management) employees, not just their members. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/33 "2016-10-25T21:30:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Nope. Most people in right to work states who want to work can’t, and when they can, it’s at minimum wage without benefits > > 😉 Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/34 "2016-10-25T21:31:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont think you understand how Unions and Union contracts work. > > When a Union negotiates, it gets better pay for \*all \*(non-management) employees, not just their members. Are you saying that any improvements negotiated by the union legally have to be applied to all employees? and are you of a mind to answer my previous questions? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/35 "2016-10-25T22:20:33Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you saying that any improvements negotiated by the union legally have to be applied to all employees? > > and are you of a mind to answer my previous questions? That’s how it works. "\* Within broad legal boundaries, the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) has the authority to determine the size and scope of bargaining units for the private sector.[225] [226] [227] Per the NLRB: Generally, the appropriateness of a bargaining unit is determined on the basis of a community of interest of the employees involved. Those who have the same or substantially similar interests concerning wages, hours, and working conditions are grouped together in a bargaining unit. In determining whether a proposed unit is appropriate, the following factors are also considered: 1. Any history of collective bargaining. 2. The desires of the employees concerned. 3. The extent to which the employees are organized.[228]" [Unions – Just Facts](http://www.justfacts.com/unions.asp) Which question? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/36 "2016-10-26T07:18:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s how it works. Then the whole process is objectionable to me. In Europe you are free to belong to a union or not and you are free to negotiate your terms and conditions individually or collectively as you so wish. You can’t be compelled to be a union member or pay union dues against your will. “land of the free” apparently. > [@](#): > > Which question? Those strings of words with question marks after them in my previous posts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/37 "2016-10-26T13:42:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Does anyone know if the VA laws have seen court challenges recently? Upheld in favor of someone who wanted to join the union, against the employer in _Norfolk Airport Authority v. Nordwall_, 436 SE 2d 436 (Va 1993) where a fire-fighter with rank (supervisory captain) joined the union and was fired. (“…[n]o person shall be required by an employer to abstain or refrain from membership in any labor union or labor organization as a condition of employment or continuation of employment.”) Va Code § 40.1-61 et seq. > [@](#): > > The Authority’s Executive Director, called by Nordwall as an adverse witness, testified that he had full discretion and made the final decisions regarding personnel matters. He stated that Nordwall was discharged “because … as captain in the fire department he … joined a union, which we felt was in conflict with his loyalty and his duties to the authority.” And upheld in favor of someone who did NOT want to join the union against a contrary contract provision in _Singleton v. International Association of Machinists, District 141, Local Lodge No. 1747, et al._ 397 SE 2d 856 (Va 1990) where Eugene Singleton, an employee of Ogden Allied Aviation Services, was fired pursuant to the collection bargaining agreement between Ogden and the International Association of Machinists which purported to mandate that all Ogden’s employees be union members. > [@](#): > > In June 1989, at the union’s request, Ogden discharged Singleton because he refused to join the union. However, Ogden told Singleton that he would be reinstated if he joined the union. Singleton did so, and he was rehired. Then he sued. And won. tl;dr: Yes, in 1990 and 1993. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/38 "2016-10-26T15:27:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Then the whole process is objectionable to me. In Europe you are free to belong to a union or not and you are free to negotiate your terms and conditions individually or collectively as you so wish. > You can’t be compelled to be a union member or pay union dues against your will. > > “land of the free” apparently. > > Those strings of words with question marks after them in my previous posts. You’re not compelled to be a union member at all. Just dont apply at a Union shop. But since you get better pay and benefits at a union shop, why wouldnt you want to? You cant copy and paste? :rolleyes:You asked a lot of questions, some of which indicate you dont know how collective bargaining works. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/39 "2016-10-26T18:05:14Z")
Thank you, \*\* Bricker\*\*. My hypothesis was that very recent court activity in VA had prompted a push for an amendment, but that does not appear to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/40 "2016-10-26T18:07:25Z")
I was wondering when this cliche would pop up. The sad thing is that this is used by real union supporters, not by people just pretending and trying make unions look bad: > [@DrDeth](#): > > You’re not compelled to be a union member at all. Just dont apply at a Union shop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592.md?page=3)