# Virginia Dopers: Constitutional amendment on the ballot: "Right to work" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592 "2016-10-24T14:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/41 "2016-10-26T18:52:46Z")
God, I hope that gets defeated. The term “right to work law” is phony propaganda. It does nothing for anyone’s actual _right_ to work, and its sole purpose is union busting. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/42 "2016-10-27T01:10:50Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Thank you, \*\* Bricker\*\*. My hypothesis was that very recent court activity in VA had prompted a push for an amendment, but that does not appear to be the case. See post #11. West Virginia passed a right to work law in the Spring of 2016. The law was almost immediately stayed by a circuit court judge. My guess is that Virginia legislators saw this and decided to put the bridle to any of its judges that would try the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Itself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d07c76/32.png) [@Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/43 "2016-10-27T03:47:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont think you understand how Unions and Union contracts work. > > When a Union negotiates, it gets better pay for \*all \*(non-management) employees, not just their members. You’re assuming that the actions of the union are always favorable to its members. What if I only plan to work in a field for a few years and so don’t want my pay to be determined by seniority? What if I’m particularly good in my field and would prefer more strongly merit-based pay? What if the union just traded (to take an arbitrary number) a 2% cost of living increase for a better family health care plan, and I don’t have any kids? What if I’m a hardcore Republican and the union regularly gives millions to the Democratic party? And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/44 "2016-10-27T08:01:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You’re not compelled to be a union member at all. Just dont apply at a Union shop. pathetic. I suspect that that you would not support the reverse position would you? > [@](#): > > You cant copy and paste? you can’t read or answer a simply posed question? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/45 "2016-10-27T09:05:10Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > God, I hope that gets defeated. The term “right to work law” is phony propaganda. It does nothing for anyone’s actual _right_ to work, and its sole purpose is union busting. It does nothing to stop unions organising or representing those who _want to be represented._. Which is surely the key. Freedom to join a union, freedom from _having to join_ a union. My position is clearly the one that gives the individual the greatest freedom and choice. I’ve yet to be given a clear, reasonable justification for forcing membership of an organisation. Particularly one that is political in nature and one that could pressure you into taking industrial action when you may not want to. So I see it as a good thing. It does stop people having union membership forced upon them where such membership has no bearing on their ability to work Explain to me how it is “union busting”? (That’s a direct question by the way, DrDeth seemed to have trouble picking them out so I thought I’d avoid confusion) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/46 "2016-10-27T10:30:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Utterly irrelevant to the question of whether someone should be forced to join a union. If they are that beneficial then good sense will prevail and the worker should be free to join or leave as they see fit. Cite? I thought non-union members generally received most of the benefits of any labor contract negotiated by the relevant union. No? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/47 "2016-10-27T10:46:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cite? I thought non-union members generally received most of the benefits of any labor contract negotiated by the relevant union. No? That is my understanding in the United States. It doesn’t have to be that way, and I’m not sure it should be that way. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/48 "2016-10-27T10:52:54Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > That is my understanding in the United States. It doesn’t have to be that way, and I’m not sure it should be that way. Rather, any negotiated changes and representation cover everyone. You may not see those as a benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/49 "2016-10-27T13:36:25Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > God, I hope that gets defeated. The term “right to work law” is phony propaganda. It does nothing for anyone’s actual _right_ to work, and its sole purpose is union busting. I quoted two cases above that demonstrate that the law does something for the litigants’ actual right to work. Can you explain your conclusion in light of that? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/50 "2016-10-27T15:10:13Z")
Right-to-work laws give people the right to work in poor conditions and for low wages. Without these protections, some workers are forced to work for higher pay, and with better safety and improved conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/51 "2016-10-27T15:28:48Z")
Since unemployment is higher in non-right-to-work states, and since, while nominal wages are slightly lower, but[purchasing power is the same or higher](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/right-to-work-laws-myth-vs-fact), most of the above is simply union propaganda. And most workers in the US can or have already seen thru it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/52 "2016-10-27T16:00:28Z")
[Pete Seeger was not a fan of right-to-work laws.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C13JFv4JfH8) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/53 "2016-10-27T16:45:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > you can’t read or answer a simply posed question? Give me one, and we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/54 "2016-10-27T16:47:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since unemployment is higher in non-right-to-work states, and since, while nominal wages are slightly lower, but[purchasing power is the same or higher](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/right-to-work-laws-myth-vs-fact), most of the above is simply union propaganda. Heritage Foundation is a teeeny bit biased. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/55 "2016-10-27T16:48:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cite? I thought non-union members generally received most of the benefits of any labor contract negotiated by the relevant union. No? cite for what? I didn’t make a claim. I put forward an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/56 "2016-10-27T16:51:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Give me one, and we’ll see. We aren’t back in school and I’m not doing your work for you. You read my posts, you saw the questions. The only reason you are pretending that they don’t exist is that you don’t want to address them. Fine, evasion noted. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/57 "2016-10-27T17:01:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Heritage Foundation is a teeeny bit biased. :rolleyes: _:shrugs:_ It’s true nonetheless. On the off chance that you are not just trying to dodge- > [@](#): > > Some time ago, George Mason University’s Nobel Prize-winning Economics Department found that once adjusted for cost of living, families in Right to Work states averaged $2,800 more in purchasing power than families in non-Right to Work states. > A more recent study by Barry Poulson, an economics professor at the University of Colorado in Boulder and past president of the North American Economics and Finance Association, showed even more striking results. > Comparing households in metropolitan areas located entirely in Right to Work states and those located entirely in non-Right to Work states, Poulson found that families in Right to Work states have nearly $4,300 more in cost of living-adjusted household incomes. > Using the U.S. Commerce and MERIC figures adjusted for the interstate differences in living costs, the 22 Right to Work states had an average 2009 per capita disposable income of $35,543, roughly $2000 higher than the overall forced-unionism state average of $33,389 and Indiana’s cost of living-adjusted per capita disposable income of $33,604. [Cite](http://www.shelbynews.com/community/opinion/article_1278d659-58aa-584f-8e93-1e65f7679375.html). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/58 "2016-10-27T17:13:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > _:shrugs:_ It’s true nonetheless. > > On the off chance that you are not just trying to dodge- > [Cite](http://www.shelbynews.com/community/opinion/article_1278d659-58aa-584f-8e93-1e65f7679375.html). Correlation does not equal causation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/59 "2016-10-27T17:15:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DrDeth** : > > Because a Union negotiates benefits and pay for all the employees. If the Union gets a 5% pay increase and a better Dental plan, for example, why shouldnt all the employees who benefit pay dues? I, too, have never been able to understand this. Yes, I know that it’s true, but I don’t know why it should be true. Why can’t one have a workplace with both union and non-union employees, where the union negotiates on behalf of all of its members, while the non-union members negotiate their own contracts? I can even envision a workplace with multiple competing unions, where an employee could decide which of them will do a better job of representing his interests. And if none of the unions happens to be doing a very good job, well then, why shouldn’t the employee be able to opt out? As it is, the system we have now often boils down to “protect the workers from management, by introducing even more management”. Yes, it’s the stated purpose of the union to work for the workers’ best interests, but they often don’t actually have any incentive to do so, because the workers will have to pay their dues (or fair share fees) regardless. Personally, I think that the only government intervention that’s needed to make unions work is to enforce whatever contracts end up getting signed, and to prosecute violence like that committed by the Pinkertons back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592/60 "2016-10-27T17:18:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Correlation does not equal causation. OK. I said it was an off chance. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-dopers-constitutional-amendment-on-the-ballot-right-to-work/769592.md?page=4)