# Virginia educrats drop the hammer on advanced math education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396 "2021-04-20T19:24:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/201 "2021-04-27T19:18:03Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It doesn’t sound like it was even a proposal–more like a rough draft of potential changes getting its first public airing. In that sort of context, adjusting things in response to feedback is the whole point, it’s not a gotcha. Sure, it’s good if they adjusted their proposal in response to criticism. But then giving feedback and saying ‘I think this is a bad idea’ is also part of that process. If it wasn’t public they might not have felt the need to change anything. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > After 30 years of watching the right-wing spin-machine in action, I’m deeply skeptical that that’s the case. But show me the text of the original proposal and how it differs from the text of the modified proposal, and I can be persuaded. Are you saying the Facebook posts of a Democratic school board member are part of the right-wing spin machine? What? This seems to be an increasingly common attitude on this website. Someone posts a story with a link to the original source, and people’s first question is ‘what is right-wing news saying about this?’ Like, why? Are they afraid they might accidentally agree with the enemy or something? Anyway, here’s the link from the OP which contains the paragraphs quoted in Mr Serotkin’s second Facebook post that he says were added later: [https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/mathematics/vmpi/index.shtml](https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/mathematics/vmpi/index.shtml) And here’s the archive of the page from a few days ago that does not contain them: > **[VDOE :: Virginia Mathematics Pathways Initiative (VMPI)](https://web.archive.org/web/20210421195150/https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/mathematics/vmpi/index.shtml)** > > Instruction description goes here. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/202 "2021-04-27T19:20:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sometimes they will correct, but only after the damage that they want is done. Looks like the ‘damage’ they want has been done if the reforms were adjusted due to the publicity. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/203 "2021-04-27T19:25:23Z")
Although, it would be better if they would adjust their infographic to show how taking the courses earlier could fit in with their scheme, rather than just stating it’s possible but not showing how. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/204 "2021-04-27T20:05:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Looks like the ‘damage’ they want has been done if the reforms were adjusted due to the publicity. Repeating that does not make it so. As others also pointed earlier, even the criticism applied to the early proposal may not have been as valid as the critics claimed. But as I pointed out, the line the right wing sources will continue to use will be against the now _imaginary_ resolution, and it will not be the correction the one that will use, and I know that from experience. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/205 "2021-04-27T20:51:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As an example, Project Veritas regularly finds people that are working in places like that and manipulates people to say things that they think they are plausible but are wrong. Please cite your claim that the video conferences hosted by the Virginia Department of Education to discuss this proposal were a psyop staged by “Project Veritas.” ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/206 "2021-04-27T20:55:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It sounds more like the beaucrats watered down their proposal due to the criticism they were getting. This would be the best possible meaning of the situation, though we still have a lot of people speaking out of both sides of their mouth (Lane saying in the same statement that “acceleration is not going away” and then later on talking about how we need to keep students grouped together through grade 10, and most of the people denying that acceleration is being removed pointing to the possibility of taking calculus in 12th grade only) and a lot of ways to go until 2026. Given what has gone on with the magnet school situation and the general “equity”/CRT movement in the Virginia DoE my trust that they will not look for another opportunity to sneak in “wanting to take courses at your ability level is racist and forbidden” is pretty low, assuming they even have backed off of it for now which is far from clear. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/207 "2021-04-27T21:00:38Z")
Please read it again, that right wing group was offered “as an example” IOW, as it was supposed to be clear, Project Veritas is not involved here, but there is a modus operandi at hand. It was indeed an example of the spin right wing sources of info use. Get a misunderstanding and blow it up in the worse ways to get a rise of other right-wingers in the infosphere. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/208 "2021-04-27T21:07:10Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Given what has gone on with the magnet school situation and the general “equity”/CRT movement in the Virginia DoE And speaking of cites, you do need a cite to show that any CRT papers or books that are being used as planning manuals by those “educrats” ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/209 "2021-04-27T21:14:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And speaking of cites, you do need a cite to show that any CRT papers or books that are being used as planning manuals by those “educrats” Yes, there are many citations showing exactly that. Here’s our old friends Atif Qarni and James Lane right at the top of the “Road Map to Equity” that specifically thanks the pope of the CRT religion, Ibram Kendi, for “research and scholarship contributions that have informed the development of the EdEquityVA Framework.” [https://www.doe.virginia.gov/edequityva/navigating-equity-book.pdf](https://www.doe.virginia.gov/edequityva/navigating-equity-book.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/210 "2021-04-27T21:18:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please read it again, that right wing group was offered “as an example” IOW, as it was supposed to be clear, Project Veritas is not involved here, but there is a modus operandi at hand. It was indeed an example of the spin right wing sources of info use. So just an attempt to poison the well by mentioning something totally irrelevant to the situation at hand? “Hey, I heard some right-wingers in Germany did some bad stuff in the 1930s…anyway, what’s up with the people I’ve decided are right-wingers and their opinions on Virginia’s math standards?” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/211 "2021-04-27T21:28:19Z")
Not impressed as the thanks to Kendi are for his research. IOW facts offered, no reference to any CRT papers. Remember, (besides your OP not being operational as Nixon aids found their arguments to be) your overall issue with CRT is that you claim that it is not based on reality. (Again it is just a framework for researchers any findings that stand will be based on the quality of the research) ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/212 "2021-04-27T21:31:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > besides your OP not being operational as Nixon aids found their arguments to be Wow, Nixon operatives AND Project Veritas! How deep does this conspiracy go??? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/213 "2021-04-27T21:31:27Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > So just an attempt to poison the well by mentioning something totally irrelevant to the situation at hand? “Hey, I heard some right-wingers in Germany did some bad stuff in the 1930s…anyway, what’s up with the people I’ve decided are right-wingers and their opinions on Virginia’s math standards?” It is very underwhelming to declare someone as a well poisoner when that someone is just pointing at the sources that you used as the ones who did poison it, you need to read the tread to see that I was not the only one who noticed how exaggerated the accusations are. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/214 "2021-04-27T21:34:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is very underwhelming to declare someone as a well poisoner when that someone is just pointing at the sources that you used as the ones who did poison it, The sources I used for my claims about what the Virginia Department of Education is proposing were the Virginia Department of Education’s website and a Youtube video showing a meeting hosted by the Virginia Department of Education. You alleged that these sources are part of a vast right-wing conspiracy fabricated by “Project Veritas,” Richard Nixon, and a liberal Democratic Party member serving on an elected school board who you have decided, based on nothing, is not just a “conservative” but an insidious far-right operative engaged in making up fake websites and conferences and attributing them to the Department of Education, and now you are doubling down on it as part of some recurring bugaboo that equity and CRT ideology are, simultaneously, unquestionably good things that must be supported, and things that never exist or have any adherents or influence in any place or time. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/215 "2021-04-27T21:41:26Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > You alleged that these sources are part of a vast right-wing conspiracy fabricated by “Project Veritas,” Richard Nixon No, that is 100% wrong. Again the first item was mentioned as an example of how misunderstandings from even liberal leaning educators can get are used then by right wing sources to get twisted arguments. The Nixon item was mentioned just as a reference to how an argument that was found already to be an exaggeration or a mistake should not be used again since all others in a thread already do know the score. (Just a heads-up BTW) Nothing about a conspiracy, but just about pointing out how wrong you are on your arguments so far. Including this one using a personal attack against me. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/216 "2021-04-27T22:05:11Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > the recent war on academic excellence being waged by the Virginia Democratic Party > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > The answer, of course, is lack of “equity” - everyone must be the same, and it’s preferable to make everyone equally ignorant and intentionally hold back the development of those with higher competency if that’s necessary to achieve the goal. > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > I suppose we’ll find out at the ballot box whether or not people “must” do as they are told by the equity cultists. > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > destroying TJ and the other advanced specialty schools has been a goal of the Virginia “equity” movement for a few years now Those are from the first 21 posts in this thread. But tell me more about this “well poisoning”… ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/217 "2021-04-27T22:28:07Z")
Also let’s be clear–while the original categorization of the chain of events was me calling Ian Serotkin a right wing school board member was not accurate–he was just a generally confused school board member (probably in part because of poor wording by the BOE–but him not knowing that the BOE lacks power to set individual division curriculum is on him), the second part of it–that right wing propaganda sources then ran with it to stir up trouble is absolutely correct, and very likely the only reason this issue darkened our doors. Point of fact one way you can tell Serotkin was not a right winger is when confronted with factual details which showed his original complaints were unfounded, he changed his stance on the issue, changing one’s opinion in light of new facts isn’t part of the right wing mindset in America so obviously Serotkin demonstrated he was not part of that segment of our politics. [Virginia DOE pushes document on ‘mathematics through the lens of social justice’ | Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/us/virginia-math-lens-social-justice-race) [Virginia to revamp math curriculum, CANCEL advanced courses prior to last two years of high school to force racial equity — RT USA News](https://www.rt.com/usa/521986-virginia-cancels-racist-math/) [Virginia Is Getting Rid of Advanced Math Classes To Promote ‘Equity’ | MRCTV](https://www.mrctv.org/blog/virginia-getting-rid-advanced-math-classes-promote-equity) [Virginia Moves To Eliminate All Accelerated Math Courses Before 11th Grade As Part of “Equity-Focused” Plan, Ending Advanced Diplomas for Gifted Students - Geller Report News](https://gellerreport.com/2021/04/virginia-punishes-gifted-students.html/) I don’t feel like having to take a bath so I’m not going to peruse any more right wing propaganda sites on this topic just to build the case. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/218 "2021-04-28T02:19:55Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Those are from the first 21 posts in this thread. But tell me more about this “well poisoning”… Why do you think it is appropriate for the “news” section of a major newspaper to have the same tone and agenda as a person strongly advocating for one side of an issue on a “great debates” message board? ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/219 "2021-04-28T02:20:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Also let’s be clear–while the original categorization of the chain of events was me calling Ian Serotkin a right wing school board member was not accurate–he was just a generally confused school board member (probably in part because of poor wording by the BOE–but him not knowing that the BOE lacks power to set individual division curriculum is on him), the second part of it–that right wing propaganda sources then ran with it to stir up trouble is absolutely correct, and very likely the only reason this issue darkened our doors. Is it your contention that an otherwise true story, cited to primary sources only, _becomes_ false if the wrong people report it? What’s the epistemological mechanism of that process? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396/220 "2021-04-28T05:20:41Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Is it your contention that an otherwise true story, cited to primary sources only, _becomes_ false if the wrong people report it? What’s the epistemological mechanism of that process? Being wrong is still being wrong, what is clear is that even when knowing now that the early report was wrong right wing sources of information are not correcting their reports. Nor telling viewers or readers that the original wrong report is not a valid one, that is beyond asinine as seen by the articles cited by @Martin_Hyde Others do note how false those reports are by purposely omitting the clarifications of what the status of the discussion really is in Virginia. > **[VDOE says there will be no removal of accelerated math classes](https://www.whsv.com/2021/04/27/vdoe-says-there-will-be-no-removal-of-accelerated-math-classes/)** > > Virginia Department of Education Superintendent James Lane is squashing rumors circulating about the removal of accelerated math courses and the merging of the advanced diploma and the standard diploma. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-educrats-drop-the-hammer-on-advanced-math-education/940396.md?page=12)