# Virginia Schoolchildren to be Force to Recite Pledge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2001, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708 "2001-01-25T13:18:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/41 "2001-01-31T14:22:09Z")
I wouldn’t mind seeing them take the damn thing out of the schools altogether. When I was in about 7th grade I quit saying it because I didn’t believe half of it and I also thought it was a pretty stupid concept. Then one morning in 11th grade, a teacher notices that me and one other student did not say it, did not even mouth along with it, just stood there. I didn’t have the nerve to stay seated, you understand. So what did the bitch do? She made the two of us stand up together and recite it in front of the whole class. I was sixteen or seventeen, mind you, more than old enough to make up my own mind about this sort of crap. Oh, yeah, that made an impression, but not the one she intended. I didn’t realize I could have SUED her or I would have! ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/42 "2001-01-31T14:58:36Z")
Damn. It passed the Senate yesterday (albeit in a watered-down version), 27-9. At least 9 Senators were courageous enough to see this thing as the feel-good, time-wasting piece of crap that it is. I am, however, quite proud of my senator, Linda Puller (which I corrected in the letter above before I sent it–different part of Fairfax Cty. 😉 ). Not only did she vote against it, she is quoted in the [Post](http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5086-2001Jan30.html) as saying: "‘I married a Marine, and my husband fought in Vietnam,’ said Sen. Linda T. ‘Toddy’ Puller (D-Fairfax), who said her late husband’s war injuries were so severe that ‘he ultimately died in service of his country.’ ‘But – and he would back me up on this – our country needs to inspire people who want to be patriotic,’ Puller said. ‘This is not how to do that.’ Her husband, Lewis B. Puller Jr., lost both legs and parts of both hands to a land mine in Vietnam. In 1994, he shot himself to death." I sure am glad I voted for her. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/43 "2001-01-31T17:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RalfCoder \* > \*\* I for one think you might do better at choosing your battles. Yeah, let’s not force the kid to think this country is a good place to live, or stifle his creativity. But it might be more effective to be sure that these kids: > > - had breakfast that morning before they were forced to say that pledge; > > - had warm clothes and shoes to wear while being forced to say that pledge; > > - got a well-rounded education after being forced to say that pledge; > > - had a safe, secure, home with a parent or two in residence to go to that night. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/44 "2001-01-31T17:15:50Z")
Sorry for the empty post… What I meant to say was, as an American and as a parent, I find the thought of turning any of those responsibilities mentioned by RalfCoder over to the state to be far more frightening than having the children recite the pledge. Will the state be responsible for mandating the warm, healthy breakfast menu? Will the state set warmth and dryness requirements for my childrens clothes? Will the state actually be able to educate my children effectively (see the thread on being amazed at what people don’t know) Will the state pop in from time to time to ensure I am “safe” and “secure” enough? Or will they just install closed-circuit cameras? Maybe that’s not what was meant, but that’s what ends up happening. I think EVERY child should have bacon and eggs for breakfast!! Therefore, I’ll get a bunch of people together and make a big fuss about it until the politicians will want to please us so bad that they’ll make it mandatory in the name of “family values”!!! Hooray!! Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/45 "2001-01-31T18:00:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OneDollarWilliam \* > I recite the pledge as a way of showing my respect to this Nation for upholding it’s responsibility to the very pledge which I am reciting. I submit that _respect_ and _allegiance_ are two very different things. I have a great deal of respect for pldennison, for instance, but I owe him no allegiance whatsoever. I, too, believe in the general concepts for which this country stands. But the Bible is clear that, in an essential sense, I am _outside_ of this country. I care about it deeply, but my true home is elsewhere. I am familiar with the passage in Romans 13 that you quote, **ODW** , but I would point out that, if I should drive across the border to Canada, I obey _their_ laws, and if they have any sales taxes, I pay those taxes if I purchase anything. My submission to the authorities of Canada, my obeisance to their laws, and my paying their taxes, falls far short of allegiance: Canada isn’t my country. But the Bible says, and I believe, that neither is America, or any other country in this world. ---
**Author:** ![RalfCoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@RalfCoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RalfCoder)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/46 "2001-01-31T20:03:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > \*\*What I meant to say was, as an American and as a parent, I find the thought of turning any of those responsibilities mentioned by RalfCoder over to the state to be far more frightening than having the children recite the pledge. > > … snipped… > > Maybe that’s not what was meant, but that’s what ends up happening. I think EVERY child should have bacon and eggs for breakfast!! Therefore, I’ll get a bunch of people together and make a big fuss about it until the politicians will want to please us so bad that they’ll make it mandatory in the name of “family values”!!! Hooray!!\*\* That’s not what was meant. I didn’t mean that the state (or feds or church or other organization) should take over feeding or clothing the kids. What I meant was that before worrying about whether the kids are being “brainwashed” into unthinking allegiance, we (as parents, family members, citizens) should be doing it ourselves. Do this by spending time with your family; donating money, time, and/or supplies to the local food bank, shelter, Good Will, Red Cross, United Way, or whatever organization you have locally; be a youth group leader for 4H, Campfire Girls, or the Boy or Girl Scouts. If you’re in the position to do so, hire someone that really needs the job to support their family. There’s lots of ways to do have an impact. You may not solve the whole problem single-handedly, but you’ll help. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. \*\* Agreed. And I should know better than to argue politics or religion. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/47 "2001-01-31T20:55:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RalfCoder \* > \*\* > That’s not what was meant. I didn’t mean that the state (or feds or church or other organization) should take over feeding or clothing the kids. What I meant was that before worrying about whether the kids are being “brainwashed” into unthinking allegiance, we (as parents, family members, citizens) should be doing it ourselves. Do this by spending time with your family; donating money, time, and/or supplies to the local food bank, shelter, Good Will, Red Cross, United Way, or whatever organization you have locally; be a youth group leader for 4H, Campfire Girls, or the Boy or Girl Scouts. If you’re in the position to do so, hire someone that really needs the job to support their family. There’s lots of ways to do have an impact. You may not solve the whole problem single-handedly, but you’ll help. I agree with the points you make about what we individually should be doing. However, the infringements at the edges of our freedom that border on “overlookable” can not be overlooked. Before you know it, having “In God We Trust” displayed at all public schools becomes “All schoolage children will be baptized Catholic” (or some such). The mandatory pledge of allegiance for our children becomes the McCarthy hearings. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. \*\* Agreed. And I should know better than to argue politics or religion. \*\* [/QUOTE] Yeah, but it’s such fun! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/48 "2001-01-31T22:16:17Z")
I see nothing wrong with requiring the pledge of allegiance, per se, but I don’t necessarily agree with the way they want to implement it. I grew up saying the pledge, and yes, I didn’t understand the implications as a child. However, just when would you suggest exposing a person to the idea of love of country? Do we raise them in a vacuum, with no framework or anchor on which to base decisions? Who decides when an individual is mature enough to make their own decisions? And then when turned loose to make those decisions, on what experience are they going to be based? Intellect doesn’t just happen, and we are all shaped by our associations with others, through exposure to differing opinions, and observations of what seems to work and what doesn’t. This country gives so much to it’s citizens despite it’s faults, that to expect allegiance is not out of line, especially in light of the freedoms others have died for. Whether you agree or not, this country was founded as a nation under God, and based on Christian principles. Have the tenets been followed perfectly? No. Are we a perfect nation? No. Do we have a long way to go? Yes. But when compared against the rest of the world, overall we manage to do it right 99% of the time. Hark back to Florida and the recount fiasco; in most other nations it would have led to riots, bloodshed and a possible coup. as a whole, Americans are spoiled rotten, and take far too much of what we have for granted; our voter turnout is a disgrace, when measured against the fact that people in countries who don’t enjoy the franchise willingly risk their lives and all they have to fight for that right. We are free because we have held true in the past to love of country and upholding of the principles that made it great. A paradox I see here is that people are so enamored of their freedom and their ‘rights’, that they conveniently forget who and what bought that freedom for them. Freedom is never free, and the price of maintaining that freedom has always been vigilance and blood. I see nothing wrong with teaching children the history and heritage of their country, and teaching them pride; in country and in self, any more than I see anything wrong in teaching them the three R’s. If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything, and the day that I don’t get a lump in my throat when I see the Stars & Stripes wave proudly is the day I die. There is still room in this world for old fashioned patriotism; it’s that patriotism that earned you the freedoms you enjoy, and if you lose sight of, ignore, or denigrate that, your freedom is in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Gundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Gundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gundy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/49 "2001-01-31T22:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vestal Blue \* > **I see nothing wrong with teaching children the history and heritage of their country, and teaching them pride; in country and in self, any more than I see anything wrong in teaching them the three R’s** I think we owe children more than the empty words that the Pledge of Allegiance is to them; they don’t understand what they’re saying, so all the meaning adults attribute to it is lost on them. We owe it to children to teach them the unabashed history of our country, warts and all, and let them discover for themselves what distinguishes the US from other countries. Let them _ **decide for themselves** _ to be proud or patriotic based on _ **facts** _, not rhetoric. Put it this way: are you patriotic because of the Pledge of Allegiance, or do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance because you know what it means to be patriotic? ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/50 "2001-01-31T22:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gundy \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Vestal Blue \* > > **I see nothing wrong with teaching children the history and heritage of their country, and teaching them pride; in country and in self, any more than I see anything wrong in teaching them the three R’s** > > …Put it this way: are you patriotic because of the Pledge of Allegiance, or do you recite the Pledge of Allegiance because you know what it means to be patriotic? \*\* Having the recitation of the pledge be a part of me gave me a foundation to think on, so that when I was old enough to understand, I was able to say “Oh, so that’s what that means!” and I happened to agree with it. I could have easily gone the other way, and refuted the principles, and chosen another path. _But at least I had something on which to base my decision_. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/51 "2001-01-31T23:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Whether you agree or not, this country was founded as a nation under God, and based on Christian principles. No it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/52 "2001-02-01T00:19:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Whether you agree or not, this country was founded as a nation under God, and based on Christian principles. > > No it wasn’t. \*\* Extracts from our declaration of independence: …the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature’s **God entitle them…** …that all men are created equal, that they are **endowed by their Creator** with certain unalienable rights… …And for the support of this declaration, **with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,** we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor. ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/53 "2001-02-01T00:22:45Z")
oooops! Forgot the cite. [http://search.britannica.com/frm\_redir.jsp?query=u.s+constitution&redir=http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/constitution/](http://search.britannica.com/frm_redir.jsp?query=u.s+constitution&redir=http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/constitution/) ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/54 "2001-02-01T01:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vestal Blue \* > **bunch crap deleted** Hey Vestal. We went through this already. In fact, there was a pit thread started on it. You were proven wrong, and being, I’m assuming, a cowardly fellow, chose to not respond instead of defending your statements. The thread was started by the lovely and bubbly **MEBuckner** and was title was [Vestal Blue, may I have a word with you](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=49894) In it, I posted a link to a quiz that I urge everyone who is confused about history, as you obviously, obviously, are. The quiz can be found [here](http://www.ffrf.org/quiz.html) and **PLD** , nice thread ---
**Author:** ![Joff-Rey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Joff-Rey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joff-Rey)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/55 "2001-02-01T03:51:23Z")
[QUOTE] I think we owe children more than the empty words that the Pledge of Allegiance is to them; they don’t understand what they’re saying… QUOTE] I think that some students don’t completely understand the pledge, but by saying that, you are underestimating and, really, insulting, every student in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Tie-Dye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Tie-Dye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tie-Dye)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/56 "2001-02-01T04:21:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Having the recitation of the pledge be a part of me gave me a foundation to think on, so that when > I was old enough to understand, I was able to say “Oh, so that’s what that means!” and I > happened to agree with it. I could have easily gone the other way, and refuted the principles, and > chosen another path. But at least I had something on which to base my decision. Using that same argument, those who are taught to hate their country can still become to be patriots if they so choose, so the pledge is unnecessary. The pledge eventually comes to symbolize a person’s beliefs, but it does not create them. Reciting the pledge when you don’t understand it will not make you more likely to believe it later, it will just anger you if you do not come to believe it. It only enforces obedience and authority, not love of your country. If a person has those beliefs,they are welcome to salute the flag whenever they choose. A pledge is not a foundation - it is only a collection of meaningless words. A person’s foundation in their beliefs towards their country will be formed when they know enough to see the good and the bad that their country does, we should not be worried about whether or not this foundation will be formed in some way, because everyone will form an opinion eventually, probably before it will matter to the country. That’s why nobody should have to say or be forced to hear the pledge when they have not yet conciously chosen to believe it. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/57 "2001-02-01T14:44:38Z")
Hmmm…the Declaration of Independence contains the word “God”. So do the Qur’an and Plato’s _Republic_. Does this mean the Qur’an and the _Republic_ are Christian documents? (Some words you won’t find in the Declaration of Independence: Jesus, Christ, Christian, Christianity, Trinity, Bible, Resurrection, the Cross, savior, salvation.) From the Declaration of Independence: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,–That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Note the Declaration’s theory of government–“Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”; the governed retain the power to “alter or abolish” their form of government whenever it seems proper to them to do so in order to safeguard their own interests. Note the Bible’s theory of government: > [@](#): > > Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. – [Romans 13:1-2](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+13:1-2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) Of course the Constitution doesn’t even say anything about God at all. ---
**Author:** ![Vestal\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5e9695/32.png) [@Vestal\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vestal_Blue)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/58 "2001-02-01T19:40:50Z")
We all have our views, regardless of which side of any issue we care to be on; Isn’t it wonderful to live in a free country, where we can voice’em? **oldscratch** , Bite me, youngster. I’m not in the habit of hanging out in the pit, and so wasn’t aware of any thread started about me. I suggest you take your post above, fold it 'til it’s all corners, and stuff it where the sun don’t shine. Putz. ---
**Author:** ![Gundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Gundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gundy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/59 "2001-02-01T20:01:20Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Joff-Rey! \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I think we owe children more than the empty words that the Pledge of Allegiance is to them; they don’t understand what they’re saying… QUOTE] > > I think that some students don’t completely understand the pledge, but by saying that, you are underestimating and, really, insulting, every student in this country. \*\* Gimme a break. Okay. I’ll specify: very young children have no idea what they’re saying. My seven-year-old son (who is, naturally, quite bright), for instance, has no idea what he’s saying. At that age it’s all they can do to get the words right. So we should begin the indoctrination that early? And in any case, before you force someone to do something (particularly an impressionable child) you should at the very least give the reasons behind it. This is SCHOOL, for pete’s sake - teach them something! By the time I reached the age of reason - say, 12, or so - I understood what the Pledge meant. I also understood what it meant to be a conscientious objector. _That’s_ when I had a foundation to base my patriotism on. Before that - it was just words. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708/60 "2001-02-01T23:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vestal Blue \* > **We all have our views, regardless of which side of any issue we care to be on; Isn’t it wonderful to live in a free country, where we can voice’em?** Does this mean you’re going to stop spreading falsehoods about this country being “founded as a nation under God, and based on Christian principles.” I sure hope so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-schoolchildren-to-be-force-to-recite-pledge/51708.md?page=4)