# Virginia Senate recount? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606 "2006-11-08T20:44:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/1 "2006-11-08T20:44:39Z")
[Webb has claimed victory,](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/08/AR2006110801435.html) but he only leads by about 7,000 votes – about .3% of the votes case – and Allen has refused to concede. Will this require a recount? If so, who do you think will win it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/2 "2006-11-08T20:48:43Z")
VA law allows for the state to pay for a recount if the delta \< 0.5%. Allen would be nuts to not avail himself of that option. So, he will, but he’ll still lose. Recounts usually favor the guy who won the first time. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/3 "2006-11-08T20:51:32Z")
There’s a lot at stake here, so I can understand why Allen doesn’t want to just roll over, but his own personal political prospects for the future are Dead. This is all about controlling the Senate, so he’s going to be obliged to force a recount. It may just be wishful thinking, but I suspect Webb will still come out ahead in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/4 "2006-11-08T20:52:25Z")
As I understand it, by law, the closeness of the vote is what will _mandate_ a recount. It has nuthin to do with one side or the other “conceding”. (As a matter of fact, there is no need other than professional politeness to “concede”… Nobody likes a sore loser, so if you want another shot at running for some office in the future, you better look mature.) However, if I understand it right, recounts typically dont change the count by more than a few hundred votes either way, so a 7,000 vote lead is fairly insurmountable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/5 "2006-11-08T20:59:17Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] As I understand it, by law, the closeness of the vote is what will _mandate_ a recount… [/QUOTE] _“Mandate”._ What a lovely word! Note how it rolls of the tongue, its a very “woody” word, “mandate”. Really a cool word, that, “mandate”. I know, I know, its unseemly to gloat. Just give me a few more days, and I’ll be ok again. Mandate. Love that word. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/6 "2006-11-08T21:06:19Z")
[Here](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-800)’s the relevant statute. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/7 "2006-11-08T21:14:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mandate. Love that word. No, no. It’s tinny. Eewww! ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/8 "2006-11-08T21:22:06Z")
[Current Virginia Numbers](http://sbe.virginiainteractive.org/): ```auto Precincts Reporting: 2440 of 2443 (99.88%) Registered Voters: 4,555,582 Total Voting: 2,367,479 Voter Turnout: 51.97 % Candidates Party Vote Totals Percentage J H Webb Jr Democratic 1,173,160 49.55% G F Allen Republican 1,165,753 49.24% G G Parker Independent 26,210 1.11% Write Ins 2,356 0.10% Total: 2,367,479 ``` Gillespie has already said they’ve found several instances where numbers were transposed, giving (for example) votes to Webb that were actually cast for Allen. I think that’s one of the straws they’re clinging to. Try to beat that 7,407 margin down with nickels and dimes. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/9 "2006-11-08T21:23:56Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] As I understand it, by law, the closeness of the vote is what will _mandate_ a recount. It has nuthin to do with one side or the other “conceding”. (As a matter of fact, there is no need other than professional politeness to “concede”… Nobody likes a sore loser, so if you want another shot at running for some office in the future, you better look mature.) However, if I understand it right, recounts typically dont change the count by more than a few hundred votes either way, so a 7,000 vote lead is fairly insurmountable. [/QUOTE] Incorrect. Virginia law does not mandate a recount. It allows for a recount under certain circumstances when requested by a candidate, paid for by the Commonwealth. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/10 "2006-11-08T21:28:49Z")
Last year, one of the Virginia races (Attorney General) ended with a 323-vote margin. The recount made little difference (actually increasing the margin to 360 votes). I don’t see any chance that a recount is going to erase a margin this large. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/11 "2006-11-08T21:29:56Z")
Wait a freakin minute - I just refreshed the page and now it says: > [@](#): > > Precincts Reporting: 2458 of 2599 (94.57%) Did they just find some new precincts? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/12 "2006-11-08T21:50:23Z")
CNN’s site still says ```auto Democratic Webb 1,172,020 50% Republican Allen (Incumbent) 1,165,111 49% Independent Grassroots Parker 26,102 1% 99% precincts reporting - Updated: 4:31 p.m. ET ``` The Associated Press is reporting the same numbers. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/13 "2006-11-08T21:53:39Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] [Here](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-800)’s the relevant statute. [/QUOTE] What **DSY** said: > [@](#): > > When there is between any candidate apparently nominated or elected and any candidate apparently defeated a difference of not more than one percent of the total vote cast for the two such candidates as determined by the State Board or the electoral board, _the defeated candidate may appeal_ from the determination of the State Board or the electoral board for a recount of the vote as set forth in this article. We’ll see what the absentee ballots look like, but unless they close most of the 7,400-vote gap between Webb and Allen, then there wouldn’t be much point in Allen’s asking for a recount. The numbers don’t typically change by thousands in a Virginia recount. Also, there still seem to be [3 precincts outstanding](http://sbe.vipnet.org/nov2006/l_02.htm) - two in James City County and one in Isle of Wight County - and while both jurisdictions are favorable to Allen, three precincts aren’t likely to close the gap by more than several hundred votes. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/14 "2006-11-08T21:55:49Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Incorrect. Virginia law does not mandate a recount. It allows for a recount under certain circumstances when requested by a candidate, paid for by the Commonwealth. [/QUOTE] Ok. Thanks for the correction, sir. (Ma’am?) I should have known better, but I was taking the word of some talking head on cable news that it was an automatic recount based on the closeness. I should have researched for myself. (Hangs head in shame.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/15 "2006-11-08T22:05:59Z")
What they said. There will be a recount, but it’s hard to believe that they’ll find not just 7,500 changed votes, but a _net gain_ of 7,500 votes for Allen when less than 2.4 million people cast ballots. Eventually, Webb will get this seat. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/16 "2006-11-08T22:07:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Incorrect. Virginia law does not mandate a recount. It allows for a recount under certain circumstances when requested by a candidate, paid for by the Commonwealth. The talking heads are correct, however, that there are circumstances in which the cost of the recount will be borne by the petitioner. Section 24.2-802(E): > [@](#): > > E. Costs of the recount shall be assessed against the counties and cities comprising the election district when (i) the candidate petitioning for the recount is declared the winner; (ii) the petitioners in a recount of a referendum win the recount; or (iii) there was between the candidate apparently nominated or elected and the candidate petitioning for the recount a difference of not more than one-half of one percent of the total vote cast for the two such candidates as determined by the State Board or electoral board prior to the recount. **Otherwise the costs of the recount shall be assessed against the candidate petitioning for the recount or the petitioners in a recount of a referendum.** If more than one candidate petitions for a recount, the court may assess costs in an equitable manner between the counties and cities and any such candidate if both are liable for costs under this subsection. Costs incurred to date shall be assessed against any candidate or petitioner who defaults or withdraws his petition. Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/17 "2006-11-08T22:10:46Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Also, there still seem to be 3 precincts outstanding - two in James City County and one in Isle of Wight County - and while both jurisdictions are favorable to Allen, three precincts aren’t likely to close the gap by more than several hundred votes. [/QUOTE] What the hell is going on with that site? That page shows 141 outstanding precincts. Am I reading it wrong? > [@](#): > > 2458 of 2599 Precincts Reporting ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/18 "2006-11-08T22:28:12Z")
[QUOTE=Patty O’Furniture] Wait a freakin minute - I just refreshed the page and now it says: Did they just find some new precincts? [/QUOTE] They’re like coathangers in the closet - they multiply when you’re not looking! There seem to be one or two new precincts in almost all counties. Might they be for the purposes of counting the absentee ballots? That’s my WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/19 "2006-11-08T22:33:26Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] There’s a lot at stake here, so I can understand why Allen doesn’t want to just roll over, but his own personal political prospects for the future are Dead. This is all about controlling the Senate, so he’s going to be obliged to force a recount. [/QUOTE] About the only reason I can think of for Allen to decline a recount is the possibility that it will lead to increased media coverage of the FBI investigation into dirty-trick attempts to suppress the Webb vote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606/20 "2006-11-08T22:44:17Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] About the only reason I can think of for Allen to decline a recount is the possibility that it will lead to increased media coverage of the FBI investigation into dirty-trick attempts to suppress the Webb vote. [/QUOTE] Hmmm . . . Don’t give up the fight, George! You can pull this out yet! 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-senate-recount/379606.md?page=2)