# Virginia strikes again - abortion clinics must pass hospital standards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 24, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521 "2011-02-24T23:53:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/1 "2011-02-24T23:53:48Z")
Story here. > [@](#): > > Virginia will become the first state to require clinics that provide first-trimester abortions to meet the same standards as hospitals. The requirements could include anything from expensive structural changes like widening hallways to increased training and mandatory equipment the clinics currently don’t have. > [@](#): > > “This is not about safety for women. This is about ideology, and this is about politics,” said Tarina Keene, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia. “The women of the commonwealth are going to be the ones left to suffer.” > [@](#): > > “It is not about banning abortions,” said Sen. Jill Vogel, R-Winchester. “It is simply caring for women who are about to have an invasive surgical procedure and creating an environment for them where they have the opportunity to do that in a place that is safe.” Well, I know which one I believe. Subject for debate: why is Virginia such a bastion of backwards, reactionary, mealy-mouthed, god-bothering busybodies? Is everything else so rosy there that they have all this time on their hands to make the lives of everyone who is slighly off the Xtian path miserable? Makes me proud and happy to state that, as far as I know, none of my ancestors ever set foot in that hole. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/2 "2011-02-25T00:07:33Z")
First off, I think you forgot your link. Second, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but an abortion is a surgery, right? If you’re performing a surgery, why shouldn’t the building be up to the same codes and standards as that of a hospital? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/3 "2011-02-25T00:13:18Z")
Sorry, link is really [here](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/02/24/national/a145004S77.DTL&tsp=1): And to answer your very good question, Lor **d Ashtar** , here is another quote: > [@](#): > > While abortion providers must be licensed in Virginia, the clinics resemble dentists’ offices and are considered physicians offices, similar to those that provide plastic and corrective eye surgeries, colonoscopies and a host of other medical procedures. In other words, if patient safety were the primary concern, why would an abortion clinic be subject to higher standards than, say, a plastic surgeon? Roddy eta: I’m no expert, but my understanding was a normal D&C abortion, done by a licensed medical practitioner with proper sterile instruments etc., is no more risky than many other outpatient procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/4 "2011-02-25T00:15:32Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Second, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but an abortion is a surgery, right? If you’re performing a surgery, why shouldn’t the building be up to the same codes and standards as that of a hospital? Because it isn’t an inpatient procedure? Ambulatory surgical centers generally don’t have the same requirements hospitals do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/5 "2011-02-25T00:44:25Z")
Not sure why you didn’t just post this in the Pit, but I agree that this bill seems designed to erect barriers for women to get abortions. I wonder if it will survive the inevitable court challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/6 "2011-02-25T04:24:08Z")
Does this mean they get to keep their government funding, then? Or the [medications they request](http://www.idahopress.com/news/article_528847ac-1e9f-11e0-8247-001cc4c03286.html)? > [@](#): > > Idaho Board of Pharmacy Executive Director Mark Johnston confirmed that the board received the complaint alleging that on Nov. 6 a Walgreens pharmacist refused to fill a prescription ordered by one of Planned Parenthood’s Boise-based nurse practitioners. The prescription was for a Planned Parenthood patient for Methergine, a medicine used to prevent or control bleeding of the uterus following childbirth or an abortion. > > An inquiry to Walgreens’ Corporate office seeking comment was not immediately addressed. > > Planned Parenthood officials said the complaint states that the pharmacist inquired if the patient needed the drug for post-abortion care. The nurse refused to answer the question based on confidentiality of health information. (Sorry to hijack, not sure if this is heading to the Pit) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/7 "2011-02-25T04:52:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not sure why you didn’t just post this in the Pit… Yeah, I think I’ll just take this one over there now. Moved GD -\> Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/8 "2011-02-25T05:15:34Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Subject for debate: why is Virginia such a bastion of backwards, reactionary, mealy-mouthed, god-bothering busybodies? Is everything else so rosy there that they have all this time on their hands to make the lives of everyone who is slighly off the Xtian path miserable? > > Makes me proud and happy to state that, as far as I know, none of my ancestors ever set foot in that hole. I think this is a little much, smearing the whole state, back through the time of your ancestors, on the basis of one asshole governor’s recent actions. It’s not like we’re Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/9 "2011-02-25T06:20:34Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I think this is a little much, smearing the whole state, back through the time of your ancestors, on the basis of one asshole governor’s recent actions. > > It’s not like we’re Arizona. OK, I’m open to persuasion. What has the Virginia state government done that’s admirable in the past, oh, ten years? Give it your best shot, Virginia-philes. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/10 "2011-02-25T06:30:53Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > First off, I think you forgot your link. > > Second, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but an abortion is a surgery, right? If you’re performing a surgery, why shouldn’t the building be up to the same codes and standards as that of a hospital? While sitting in my office at work today, I picked a skin tag off my arm with the fingernail of my index finger. Please forgive me for not adhering to your standards. Or, if my point is not apparent, I think we can strike a balance somewhere between the standards required for open-heart surgery and my skin tag removal, one that might be appropriate for the risk related to an abortion procedure. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/11 "2011-02-25T06:48:00Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > OK, I’m open to persuasion. What has the Virginia state government done that’s admirable in the past, oh, ten years? Give it your best shot, Virginia-philes. > Roddy When I was living in the state they elected Tim Kaine who is now the DNC chairman. After he left office they have been going downhill, but past performance does suggest the state shouldn’t be written off as a total loss. Northern VA always has to balance the crazy of the rest of the state and well they have issues there too. While VA has it’s problems they wouldn’t make it into my top ten worst states list. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/12 "2011-02-25T06:56:44Z")
It would not surprise me if this was in response to the recent news of [complete disregard for safety at an abortion clinic in Philly](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=12647764). In that case, the state ignored complaints about that clinic even after a woman died. To me, that makes Pennsylvania more backwards than Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/13 "2011-02-25T07:04:12Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > It would not surprise me if this was in response to the recent news of [complete disregard for safety at an abortion clinic in Philly](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=12647764). In that case, the state ignored complaints about that clinic even after a woman died. To me, that makes Pennsylvania more backwards than Virginia. A few in VA have been pushing this for years notably the AG Ken Cuccinelli, who tried to pass a similar bill when he was in the state senate. While the story you noted might have helped the bill in passing it certainly wasn’t what inspired it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/14 "2011-02-25T07:07:05Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What has the Virginia state government done that’s admirable in the past, oh, ten years? What do the last ten years have to do with your ancestors? And why must it be state government that lifts us from the status of “hole”? Is your sense of worth always driven by what your state government is doing? McDonnell has always been clear that he would take every possible opportunity to restrict abortion in all cases, and give him credit for consistency; he opposes it in cases of rape and incest too. I disagree with him very strongly, but he’s not double-crossing us on this point. As governors, Mark Warner and Tim Kaine were capable administrators who didn’t embarrass us. Kaine [increased land conservation easements](http://www.whsv.com/news/headlines/37839519.html), vetoed some expansions of the death penalty, and signed the country’s first statewide program (“mandatory” with parental opt-out) of HPV vaccinations for girls, which some people count as an important public health measure. That’s all I’ve got on short notice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/15 "2011-02-25T13:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Virginia will become the first state to require clinics that provide first-trimester abortions to meet the same standards as hospitals. Not true. Specifically, not true that Virginia has required that abortion clinics meet the same standards as hospitals. > [@](#): > > The requirements could include anything from expensive structural changes like widening hallways to increased training and mandatory equipment the clinics currently don’t have. Notice they don’t say, “The requirements DO include…” Why do you suppose that they say, “…could…?” I know why: because the standards are not yet created. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/16 "2011-02-25T14:04:16Z")
Let me add, though, that I agree with the thrust of the complaint: this is almost certainly intended to make life harder for abortion clinics. But the complaint uses the same stealth tactic that the legislation does: it doesn’t tellt he whole truth. The legislation cloaks its desire to stifle abortion clinics in neutral language about standards and safety. The complaint misrepresents the extent of the legislation’s reach in order to fuel anger against it. How about we commit to accuracy here, even though the Virginia legislators won’t return the favor? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/17 "2011-02-25T14:27:06Z")
[Text of the amendment.](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+amd+SB924AHE) [Full text of the bill.](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+ful+SB924) Bricker’s mostly right. There are some specific requirements for what the regulations must include, and some of those already seem like overkill for an abortion clinic, but the brunt of the damage will depend on how the Board interprets things. Certainly seems strange that they have Nursing Homes and Hospitals, and abortion clinics are specifically called out as being Hospitals with no real justification. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/18 "2011-02-25T14:54:23Z")
I think many southern states would gladly pass a ban 3rd trimester abortions combined with require a 6 month waiting period on all others, and say that this has nothing to do with preventing abortion access. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/19 "2011-02-25T15:06:46Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > It would not surprise me if this was in response to the recent news of [complete disregard for safety at an abortion clinic in Philly](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=12647764). In that case, the state ignored complaints about that clinic even after a woman died. To me, that makes Pennsylvania more backwards than Virginia. because no one has ever died in a hospital from medical malpractice, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521/20 "2011-02-25T15:14:28Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think many southern states would gladly pass a ban 3rd trimester abortions combined with require a 6 month waiting period on all others, and say that this has nothing to do with preventing abortion access. I think many STATES (notice the lack of regional specificity) would do so. You haven’t been paying attention to Kansas, Nebraska, and South Dakota lately. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginia-strikes-again-abortion-clinics-must-pass-hospital-standards/572521.md?page=2)