# Virginia's Governor: What's the Confederacy been up to lately? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409 "2010-04-08T14:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/21 "2010-04-08T16:33:00Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Couple of points. > > First, are you a Democrat? And if you are, are you mildly ashamed of your party’s roots - especially with regard to slavery? I don’t think you need to be - I’m just examining your thinking here. > > Secondly, I’m of the view that we have to take ownership of the whole of history, good and bad. As such, my preference would have been for a Civil War History Month - that seems more inclusive. > > After all, nobody in my family were living in this country (that I know of) during the Civil War - they arrived from Wales in the late-1860s and from Italy around WWI. When they arrived, they settled in Pennsylvania. I relocated to Virginia permanently in 1998 - before that I had been stationed here in the Navy. > > That doesn’t mean I don’t have ownership of and admiration for the history here - this belongs to everyone. And yes - I am appalled by certain things as well. But I don’t feel the need to apologize for that which I cannot control. Not too closely affiliated with a party, but as an _American_ I’m willing to express some form of dyspepsia with various aspects of its roots. Blindly claiming it’s done no wrong is jingoistic clap-trap (which I think may be part of the underlying gist of your second point). For another example, I think the Trail of Tears should be taught in schools as another condemnable part of our history, and I would post similar sentiments about those who wish to venerate the actions of those who enforced and committed the event. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/22 "2010-04-08T16:35:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I disagree. There’s no reason to be ashamed of something you didn’t do yourself. I’d agree, as long as it comes with the other side of the coin - that there is no reason to be proud of something you didn’t do yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/23 "2010-04-08T16:45:04Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > First, are you a Democrat? And if you are, are you mildly ashamed of your party’s roots - especially with regard to slavery? Speaking as a lifelong Democrat, I’m definitely embarrassed about some of the history of my party, especially the pro-slavery and pro-segregation parts of it. While I wouldn’t try to tar **all** Democrats of those periods with the racial-discrimination brush, I certainly wouldn’t support any kind of effort to honor their sacrifices in the service of bad causes. There’s a difference between guiltily “apologizing for that which you cannot control” and simply refraining from gratuitously glorifying our predecessors’ dedication to an ignoble and immoral mission. Yes, we have to accept it and understand it in its historical context, but we certainly don’t have to celebrate it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/24 "2010-04-08T16:45:53Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I’d agree, as long as it comes with the other side of the coin - that there is no reason to be proud of something you didn’t do yourself. I generally agree with that, but I’ve always said I can understand why people who have been oppressed or told to feel ashamed about who they are take pride in their groups. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/25 "2010-04-08T16:47:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It may be wrong to hold people from 150 years ago to modern understandings. But plenty of people in 1860 knew slavery was wrong. It’s irrelevant anyway. Even if we assert that morality is relative, that doesn’t justify erecting monuments and naming holidays after people just because they didn’t know history would judge them later. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/26 "2010-04-08T16:47:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I disagree. There’s no reason to be ashamed of something you didn’t do yourself. ‘Ashamed’ isn’t really the best word, and the best I could do at the moment was put the ‘mildly’ modifier in there. I get your point that it’s generally used for accepting responsibility or involvement in an act, but that seems to be straying into semantics. Do you get the concept I was trying for? Consider an extreme example (for illustration only). Say your mother/father/sister/brother/cousin/aunt/wife/whatever shows up in the news as the next “but he was such a quiet man” type story. Secret butcher of a hundred nuns or something like that, something that you had nothing to do with. Following your post above, you wouldn’t be ‘ashamed’ per se, but I dare say you’d feel some abstract sense of negativity that needs a description. Now, tune that down a thousand notches or so to the distant connection to an ancestor that lived a 150 years ago, modify the phrase as appropriate, and what do you have? That’s the concept I was aiming for. I’m glad that the overall good achieved and committed by the nation far outweighs the ill. The Confederacy and the forces that propelled it are among the ills. We done fucked up on that one, and we shouldn’t be venerating the perpetrators. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/27 "2010-04-08T16:49:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I know that you cannot impute our understanding of the wrongness of slavery to those people that lived in 1860. Guess what? They weren’t sensitive to women’s issues, either. They were positively neanderthal on gender identity issues, they weren’t LGBT-friendly, and they were shockingly blasé about carbon neutrality, too. While I generally agree that “[the past is a foreign country](http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the_past_is_a_foreign_country-they_do_things/14056.html)” (and the Confederates would insist that was literally true!), I’ve never totally bought the idea that people in 1860 didn’t know slavery was wrong. 1. They had abolitionists and former slaves telling them it was wrong. They may not have agreed (or, more likely, not have _wanted_ to agree), but does that itself give them the “ignorance of wrongdoing” defense? 2. They were familiar with the “Golden Rule.” 3. In secession, there was much heated rhetoric about Lincoln being a tyrant, submission to the North being the same as enslavement, and the South being willing to die rather than be enslaved. Generally that indicates an awareness that being enslaved is bad. > [@Bricker](#): > > But trying to honor their very real sacrifices and bravery now comes with a price: it’s a slap in the face to the descendants of slaves. The evil we now know slavery to be resonates very strongly with today’s people that would have been slaves had they had the misfortune to live then. > > In my view, giving that offense is worse than withholding that honor. So in short… yeah, I get it, the Confederacy had heroes and they acted with great honor. But since the cause they supported is one we now understand is one of grave evil, I think we ought to shut up about the honor and the heroism out of respect for the other feelings that those reminders must inevitably cause. I’m with you that far, but what about that sacred principle we Americans are so conscious of that we name military operations and fried potatoes after it? Isn’t it a slap in the face to freedom itself and all who defend it? > [@villa](#): > > But when we look at Lee and Pickett and Jackson and their colleagues, we are talking about people who almost to the man attended West Point, swore an oath of allegiance to the United States, and served in the United States military. Pickett _attended_ West Point, but I’m not sure [how much attention](http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/journal_of_military_history/v070/70.3berube.html) he was paying in class. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/28 "2010-04-08T16:50:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I know that you cannot impute our understanding of the wrongness of slavery to those people that lived in 1860. Guess what? They weren’t sensitive to women’s issues, either. They were positively neanderthal on gender identity issues, they weren’t LGBT-friendly, and they were shockingly blasé about carbon neutrality, too. I can sort of cut them a break on womens’ issues, gender identity, and so on. I mean, defined gender roles aren’t inherently evil, given that there are obvious differences between men and women. _Owning people_ is a little bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/29 "2010-04-08T16:53:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s irrelevant anyway. Even if we assert that morality is relative, that doesn’t justify erecting monuments and naming holidays after people just because they didn’t know history would judge them later. Also a good point. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Following your post above, you wouldn’t be ‘ashamed’ per se, but I dare say you’d feel some abstract sense of negativity that needs a description. What I would feel, I think, is regret for not being aware and stopping it, and fear that people would identify me with the person who committed the crime. So I think I know what you’re shooting for but I don’t think it applies here. I agree with you that this isn’t a cause that should be venerated. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/30 "2010-04-08T16:53:34Z")
Honestly, is there any need to remember the sacrifices of anybody for something that happened 150 years ago? What’s the point? Maybe I am too cynical, but a Confederate History month serves no purpose except to appease those who still think they are fighting some sort of war. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/31 "2010-04-08T16:54:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Some people try to pay tribute to bad historical causes out of a sense of persecution, other people try to learn from history. April is not Sweatshop History Month in New York. > I don’t know if this is mental gymnastics. It seems like more of a nitpick. However I found something more interesting: to my eyes, “the Confederate leaders, soldiers and citizens” excludes slaves. So this month, McDonnell wants people to consider the sacrifices Virginians made during the war, but that doesn’t extend to the hardships endured by slaves at that time. Maybe that’s covered by Black History Month and he didn’t want them to get double-counted. 😛 Well, we ARE in the midst of a census… 😛 I find his speech (the excerpt) to be just so much twaddle–he is still arguing (as are some Southerners) that it wasn’t 'bout the slaves a’tall! :rolleyes: I find the whole premise for this month to be silly. You can’t walk through a southern town without tripping over a statue honoring “their glorious dead” etc. The fact that the soldiers and officers are always white males should give them pause. I don’t doubt that the Rebel forces fought bravely and fiercely. If you’re a fan of war, that is laudatory, but that’s as far as it goes. Why not celebrate Southern history? 1607. the Melungeon, the Afro-Caribs, the Hugenots, the Spanish etc. Why JUST the Confederacy? Because this is his focus, I find the whole thing suspect and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/32 "2010-04-08T16:58:36Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > You know what I just can’t stand about Adolf Hitler? > > Look, “Aryan” is a concept applying to _languages_, specifically those of Indo-European or Indo-Iranian descent, not _people_. Man, Hitler was just _such an arsehole_ because his use of that word _makes no sense at all_. Sure, it COULD just be a careless forgetfulness in mixing up entirely different concepts, but I really can’t believe Hitler didn’t have some kind of ulterior motive for saying things like that. It just makes me so MAAAAD! :mad: So I’m pitting him. I know you’re satirizing my emphasis on the semantics of what was said. However, it’s worth noting that, satire aside, Hitler _very much did_ have an ulterior motive in conflating language groups, ethnic groups, and religious affiliations and was very consciously creating a mythology through the abuse of language to further his goals. That fact that he then went on to do _much worse_ things doesn’t absolve him of this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/33 "2010-04-08T17:03:38Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > You can’t walk through a southern town without tripping over a statue honoring “their glorious dead” etc. The fact that the soldiers and officers are always white males should give them pause. There were in fact quite a lot of [black Confederate soldiers](http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm) (thanks, **Sampiro**!). They just don’t get monuments. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/34 "2010-04-08T17:07:24Z")
My question is why is it whenever southerners want to honor their history, they always end up picking the same five years? Why don’t you ever see a bunch of Virginians reenacting the founding of Jamestown or the Battle of Yorktown or the Spotswood Expedition or the Convention of 1776? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/35 "2010-04-08T17:10:43Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > But it gets messy when government officials get into the act, as when German leaders and Pres. Ronald Reagan visited Bitburg, home to a cemetery for SS troops - which led to the following classic statement by Reagan: > > _“These [SS troops] were the villains, as we know, that conducted the persecutions and all. But there are 2,000 graves there, and most of those, the average age is about 18. I think that there’s nothing wrong with visiting that cemetery where those young men are victims of Nazism also, even though they were fighting in the German uniform, drafted into service to carry out the hateful wishes of the Nazis. **They were victims, just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps** ”_ (bolding added, with suitable disbelief) It wasn’t a cemetery for SS troops. It was a German military cemetery which also included the graves of a few Waffen SS soldiers (49 out of a total of 2000). The attribution of “these” in the Reagan quote to mean “SS troops” seems to be common on the web, but can’t be correct as his reference to “2000 graves” makes clear. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/36 "2010-04-08T17:16:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There were in fact quite a lot of [black Confederate soldiers](http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm) (thanks, **Sampiro**!). They just don’t get monuments. Yes, I know–that was my point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/37 "2010-04-08T17:18:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My question is why is it whenever southerners want to honor their history, they always end up picking the same five years? Why don’t you ever see a bunch of Virginians reenacting the founding of Jamestown or the Battle of Yorktown or the Spotswood Expedition or the Convention of 1776? Because they were on the winning side for those. They’re masochists. 😉 > [@eleanorigby](#): > > Yes, I know–that was my point. 🙂 Oh, alright. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/38 "2010-04-08T17:19:41Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Maybe I am too cynical, but a Confederate History month serves no purpose except to appease those who still think they are fighting some sort of war. This is the crux of it for me. The Confederacy only lasted four years but people continued to do things in the name of the Confederacy for a hundred years after. The lynchings, the Jim Crow stuff - that was all done by Confederate sympathizers. There’s a reason the KKK uses a Confederate flag\* to this day. A lot bad shit happened within living memory - all in the name of the Confederacy. If the Gov had declared Civil War Month or Reenactors Month I could buy that it was just an attempt at promoting tourism (a legitimate duty for a Governor.) But I don’t see how it’s possible to celebrate the Confederacy as something that happened in the distant past without acknowledging its on-going legacy and its current supporters. - yes, I know it’s not -THE- Confederate flag, it’s just -A- flag used by the Confederate Army. But that’s it’s common name. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/39 "2010-04-08T17:26:05Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > There’s a reason the KKK uses a Confederate flag\* to this day. A lot bad shit happened within living memory - all in the name of the Confederacy. The Klan doesn’t use a Confederate flag. Most of the time, in fact, you’ll see them with U.S. flags. Now, obviously it’s not like they never do it, but it’s not part of the insignia of any of the major Klan groups. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/40 "2010-04-08T17:26:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There were in fact quite a lot of [black Confederate soldiers](http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm) (thanks, **Sampiro**!). They just don’t get monuments. Frankly, monuments for them would squick me out more the monuments they have for white soldiers do, so I’m not shedding any tears for this oversight. Maybe that’s just the Nat Turner in me talking, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=3)