# Virginia's Governor: What's the Confederacy been up to lately? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409 "2010-04-08T14:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/41 "2010-04-08T17:37:16Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > Are there statues and tributes to the German soldiers who fought and died in WWII? Sure there are, they estimate about 100.000 thoused of them all over the place. However, not only WW2, since there where a few more in Europe, you properly mean stuff like this: \* here some WW2 stuff\* > **[File:Kriegerdenkmal-Seelower-Hoehe-k.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kriegerdenkmal-Seelower-Hoehe-k.jpg#file)** > > As with all other “limits of copyright by legally permitted uses”, no changes to the actual work are permitted under § 62 of the German copyright law (UrhG). > العربية ∙ Deutsch ∙ English ∙ Esperanto ∙ español ∙ français ∙ italiano ∙ 한국어 ∙ македонски ∙ português ∙ português do Brasil ∙ русский ∙ Tagalog ∙ українська ∙ 中文 ∙ 中文（简体） ∙ 中文（繁體） ∙ +/− > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > **[Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_(Treptower_Park))** > > The Soviet War Memorial (German: Sowjetisches Ehrenmal) is a war memorial and military cemetery in Berlin's Treptower Park. It was built to the design of the Soviet architect Yakov Belopolsky to commemorate 7,000 of the 80,000 Red Army soldiers who fell in the Battle of Berlin in April–May 1945. It opened four years after the end of World War II in Europe, on 8 May 1949. The Memorial served as the central war memorial of East Germany. > The monument is one of three Soviet memorials built in Ber... [http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/19063322.jpg](http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/19063322.jpg) _WW1 and older:_ Tannenberg: > **[Tannenberg Memorial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannenberg_memorial)** > > The Tannenberg Memorial (German: Tannenberg-Nationaldenkmal, from 1935: Reichsehrenmal-Tannenberg) was a monument to the German soldiers of the Battle of Tannenberg and the First Battle of the Masurian Lakes during World War I, as well as the medieval Battle of Tannenberg of 1410. The victorious German commander Generalfeldmarschall Paul von Hindenburg became a national hero and was later interred at the site. > Dedicated by Hindenburg in 1924, on the tenth anniversary of the Battle of Tannenberg ... > **[Kriegerdenkmal Berghausen – Stadtwiki Karlsruhe](https://ka.stadtwiki.net/Kriegerdenkmal_Berghausen)** Bavaria: [http://www.hicker.de/freising-kriegerdenkmal-11036-pictures.htm](http://www.hicker.de/freising-kriegerdenkmal-11036-pictures.htm) Hermannsdenkmal: > **[Hermannsdenkmal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermannsdenkmal)** > > The Hermann Memoria (German: Hermannsdenkmal) is a monument located southwest of Detmold in the district of Lippe (North Rhine-Westphalia), in Germany. It stands on the densely forested Grotenburg (de), sometimes also called the Teutberg or Teut, a hill (elevation 386 m) in the Teutoburger Wald (Teutoburg Forest) range. The monument is located inside the remains of a circular rampart. > The monument was constructed between 1838 and 1875 to commemorate the Cherusci war chief Arminius (in German, H... Battle of the Nations > **[Monument to the Battle of the Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkerschlachtdenkmal)** > > The Monument to the Battle of the Nations (German: Völkerschlachtdenkmal) is a monument in Leipzig, Germany, to the 1813 Battle of Leipzig, also known as the Battle of the Nations. Paid for mostly by donations and the city of Leipzig, it was completed in 1913 for the 100th anniversary of the battle at a cost of six million gold marks. > The monument commemorates the defeat of Napoleon's French army at Leipzig, a crucial step towards the end of hostilities in the War of the Sixth Coalition. The coa... There is something in every town in Germany, mostly at the Graveyard, Park, top of a hill/mountain or town centre. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/42 "2010-04-08T17:44:36Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > - > > here some WW2 stuff\* > [File:Kriegerdenkmal-Seelower-Hoehe-k.jpg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kriegerdenkmal-Seelower-Hoehe-k.jpg#file) Are you sure that is German? It looks like a Red Army helmet and he definitely seems to be carrying a Soviet submachine gun, maybe a PPSh-41. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/43 "2010-04-08T17:52:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My question is why is it whenever southerners want to honor their history, they always end up picking the same five years? Why don’t you ever see a bunch of Virginians reenacting the founding of Jamestown or the Battle of Yorktown or the Spotswood Expedition or the Convention of 1776? [Jamestown and Yorktown.](http://www.historyisfun.org/calendar.htm) [The Convention of 1776 appears to be reenacted daily.](http://www.history.org/visit/eventsAndExhibits/calendar/index.cfm?id=433664&startAt=27&&searchAll=0&categorySelect=&&keyWords=&itemsPerPage=25&types=&start_date=4/8/2010&end_date=4/8/2010#show_undefined) These are quite close to each other - you might want to consider a vacation here. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/44 "2010-04-08T17:53:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Klan doesn’t use a Confederate flag. Most of the time, in fact, you’ll see them with U.S. flags. Now, obviously it’s not like they never do it, but it’s not part of the insignia of any of the major Klan groups. I’m not familiar with official Klan insignia. Having just visited their website though, I can say that Confederate flag items are featured considerably more times in their store than the USA flag, by at least 15:1, I would estimate. The modern Klan seems to have a adopted a cross in a circle motif. They sell a version of the Confederate flag with a small cross in circle in the center. A larger version with just the cross in a circle is being advertised as the one flying over their headquarters. But there’s all sorts of confederate flag items, with addtions like a medallion with Lee in it, slogans and so on. One is a confederate flag with the slogan reading, “You have your flag, I have mine.” Some are just things like “Dixie Pride” and “White Pride” with the words colored like the confederate flag. In short, it’s clear that even if its use is unofficial, the Klan still claims the Confederate flag as one its main emblems. Clearly, it must be a big seller for them or they wouldn’t slap on every available flat surface. I stand by saying the Klan uses the Confederate flag. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/45 "2010-04-08T17:56:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you sure that is German? It looks like a Red Army helmet and he definitely seems to be carrying a Soviet submachine gun, maybe a PPSh-41. That _is_ a PPSh-41. The statue is by Lev Kerbel, a realist sculptor who worked for various Communist governments. The statue is in East Germany, and is probably supposed to represent the glorious liberation of East Germany from the Nazis by the Red Army. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stamp_GDR_Seelower_Hoehen.jpeg)’s an East German stamp showing the statue. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/46 "2010-04-08T17:56:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My question is why is it whenever southerners want to honor their history, they always end up picking the same five years? Why don’t you ever see a bunch of Virginians reenacting the founding of Jamestown or the Battle of Yorktown or the Spotswood Expedition or the Convention of 1776? I agree with you but I have to mention [this glaring exception](http://www.history.org/) (I’ve always wanted to go there) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/47 "2010-04-08T17:58:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Frankly, monuments for them would squick me out more the monuments they have for white soldiers do, so I’m not shedding any tears for this oversight. > > Maybe that’s just the Nat Turner in me talking, though. You do have a point… I wasn’t promoting equal statuary for slave soldiers etc, but making a point that the Civil War is never far away in any southern town. The fact that the monuments only honor white soldiers or white people is ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/48 "2010-04-08T18:14:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There were in fact quite a lot of [black Confederate soldiers](http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm) (thanks, **Sampiro**!). They just don’t get monuments. This claim is [bullshit](http://civilwargazette.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/did-blacks-fight-in-combat-for-the-confederacy). While approximately 200,000 blacks served in the Union armed forces (and 40,000 died, including those prisoners massacred by Confederate troops at Fort Pillow), it’s estimated that a few thousand blacks were taken into the Confederate army in the last days of the war, most in menial roles like cooks and so on. At best, there’s weak anecdotal evidence that a hundred to a few hundred actually saw combat. So much for the '“blacks fought to uphold the traditions of the South” argument propounded by Confederate apologists. By the way, according to USA Today the group that got Virginia’s governor to issue the Confederate History Month proclamation (reviving a practice dropped by preceding governors) was the Sons of Confederate Veterans, who say on their website: _“The preservation of freedom was the motivating factor in the South’s decision to fight the Second American Revolution.”_ That a governor would kowtow to such revolting sentiments is disgraceful. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/49 "2010-04-08T18:19:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > _“The preservation of freedom was the motivating factor in the South’s decision to fight the Second American Revolution.”_ This sounds like a headline on the _Onion_. Except it ain’t funny. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/50 "2010-04-08T18:26:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This claim is [bullshit](http://civilwargazette.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/did-blacks-fight-in-combat-for-the-confederacy). No, it isn’t. Considering what they were fighting for, I consider _any_ black participation in the Confederate Army to be quite a lot - as in, I’d have thought there wouldn’t be any. Quite aside from that, noncombatants in the Army are still in the Army. The fact that very few of them saw _combat_ is immaterial. In any case, the scholarship of the writers of the Civil War Gazette appears to be somewhat lacking. From your link: > [@](#): > > They found that only 20-30 non-whites were found out of 100,000 soldiers’ records. That is less than 1/300th of one percent. Taking into account that the following estimate involves more conjecture than a good historian would be comfortable with applying to acceptable methods of reliable historical inquiry, one can still get a fairly solid “finger in the air” estimate that if that same ratio of 1/300th was applied to the figure-range of 750,000 – 900,000 Confederates serving during the war from 1861-1865, then one could only reasonably conclude that, at best, between 250-300 black soldiers may have served in the Confederate Army, and of those an even much smaller percentage would have been entrusted to take up arms. 1/300th of 750,000 - 900,000 is 2,500 to 3,000, not 200 to 300. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/51 "2010-04-08T18:34:44Z")
Not one three-hundredth- _one three-hundredth of one percent._ 30/100,000 = 0.0003 (or 0.03%). 0.0003 \* 750,000 = 225 0.0003 \* 900,000 = 270 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/52 "2010-04-08T18:37:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That _is_ a PPSh-41. The statue is by Lev Kerbel, a realist sculptor who worked for various Communist governments. > > The statue is in East Germany, and is probably supposed to represent the glorious liberation of East Germany from the Nazis by the Red Army. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stamp_GDR_Seelower_Hoehen.jpeg)’s an East German stamp showing the statue. OK - glad I am not going crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/53 "2010-04-08T18:46:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Not one three-hundredth- _one three-hundredth of one percent._ > > 30/100,000 = 0.0003 (or 0.03%). > 0.0003 \* 750,000 = 225 > 0.0003 \* 900,000 = 270 Okay, so maybe it’s my reading skills which are lacking. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/54 "2010-04-08T18:47:05Z")
> [@maladroit](#): > > I agree with you but I have to mention [this glaring exception](http://www.history.org/) (I’ve always wanted to go there) You should definitely visit! I gotta say going to college @ William and Mary was one of the coolest and surrealist experiences I had. It’s always trippy to be waiting in line for your sub sandwich right behind Thomas Jefferson ordering his Tuna Salad, or volunteering at the nearby Hospital and Ben Franklin comes in from the ambulance because of heat stroke. :smack: Oh, Ben… But it’s a beautiful place, and it’s really awesome for those with a love of history and seeing how things work. So yeah- there are PLENTY of Virginians who take pride in the rest of their history, day in and day out, but the problem is that certain groups tend to get all the press. Slavery sells, British Anti-colonialism not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/55 "2010-04-08T18:47:25Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I’m willing to believe that the Governor did a stupid thing that he now honestly recognizes was stupid. In a sorry-I-got-caught sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/56 "2010-04-08T18:48:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so maybe it’s my reading skills which are lacking. :smack: You ain’t just whistlin’ Dixie! …whatever that means. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/57 "2010-04-08T18:54:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Welllll… > > I don’t really know these guys’ biographies. But I can imagine that if I swore an oath of loyalty to someone, and then that person fundamentally betrayed me in some way, I might be justified in “betraying” my oath (if that’s even the right word). Is this how these guys saw themselves? > > I also wanted to say maybe they saw themselves as the true defenders of the nation they swore an oath to, and saw the north as having ceased to be that nation. I can’t see any legitimate way to support that viewpoint. The rebel states seceded because Abraham Lincoln was elected President – and their objection was that the platform on which he had been elected was unacceptable to them, not that he had somehow stolen the election or that he had no legal authority to govern according to that platform once he was in office. The latter would be consistent with the notion that “I didn’t betray America; America betrayed me”; the former is not. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/58 "2010-04-08T19:06:08Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Are you sure that is German? It looks like a Red Army helmet and he definitely seems to be carrying a Soviet submachine gun, maybe a PPSh-41. Then again, that raises similar issues – Stalin wasn’t exactly a figure of sweetness and light, either. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/59 "2010-04-08T19:33:32Z")
[Another source](http://americancivilwar.com/colored/colored_troops.html) cites an account of one of the few instances of black troops in service to the Confederacy (during the retreat from Richmond in 1865), from a Confederate officer: _“Several engineer officers were superintending the construction of a line of rude breastworks…Ten or twelve negroes were engaged in the task of pulling down a rail fence; as many more occupied in carrying the rails, one at a time, and several were busy throwing up the dirt…The [Blacks] thus employed all wore good gray uniforms and I was informed that they belonged to the only company of colored troops in the Confederate service, having been enlisted by Major Turner in Richmond. Their muskets were stacked, and it was evident that they regarded their present employment in no very favorable light.”_ These men reportedly came under Union cavalry fire at some point, which the site regards as seemingly “the only documented episode of “official” Black troops serving the Confederacy in Virginia as a unit under fire…When Lee surrendered his army at Appomattox, thirty-six African-Americans were listed on the Confederate paroles. Most were either servants, free blacks, musicians, cooks, teamsters or blacksmiths.” Uh-huh. That’s “a lot” of blacks serving the Confederacy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/60 "2010-04-08T19:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I know that you cannot impute our understanding of the wrongness of slavery to those people that lived in 1860. [/quote] Why not? I mean on a large scale, I understand what I think you’re trying to say. Different times, different upbringings, different views of the world, and such. But slavery? In 1860? I can’t give you that one. Hell, I can’t even give it to you in 1783. I know all the rationalizations they had, and the bullshit excuses they made, for slavery, but I cannot agree that they should not have known it was wrong. They should have. And they had tens of thousands of people telling them it was. So, actually, yes, I can say that slavery was wrong in 1860 and those people should have known it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=4)