# Virginia's Governor: What's the Confederacy been up to lately? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409 "2010-04-08T14:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/121 "2010-04-09T14:28:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So… women voting. Required by the Fourteenth Amendment? If so, why pass the Ninteenth? \*Please step over here… Stay with the tour… Alright. Can everyone here me? Excellent. Now that the tour has passed Bricker’s Hall of Strawmen, we’re here in the “Change the topic” center, which, if you look over here, you can see the “Fallback on Socratic method” and “Refuse to address an issue” displays. We’re so happy to have such prime examples available to us in the Bricker Museum. Next, we’re on to “Repeating the same thing over and over” and “I’ll just ignore that” wings. Step lively. Step lively.\* ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/122 "2010-04-09T14:43:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, giving that offense is worse than withholding that honor. So in short… yeah, I get it, the Confederacy had heroes and they acted with great honor. But since the cause they supported is one we now understand is one of grave evil, I think we ought to shut up about the honor and the heroism out of respect for the other feelings that those reminders must inevitably cause. And this is where this Northern Virginian agrees with his fellow Northern Virginian. And, I’d like to add that anyone who thinks that forgetting about the honor and the heroism of the Confederate cause constitutes some great historical tragedy really has no sense of proportion. Furthermore, I’d like to see people getting more interested in honor and heroism that are unrelated to war. Human history has given war way more honor and heroism than anything else. Honor and heroism in war can stand a little less attention. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/123 "2010-04-09T14:59:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Apparently so did the suffragettes. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/124 "2010-04-09T15:05:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not saying that enslaving women is okay. I’m not even saying that defined gender roles for men and women are okay. I’m saying they’re _understandable_, to a degree. I know. And I’m saying that they’re \*understandable \*to the same degree that treating non-whites as inherently inferior is _understandable_. > [@Sampiro](#): > > I have the same notion of slavery in the historical context. To me it’s barbaric and inhumane obviously, but imagining living in a world where it had _always_ existed, where the Bible was as big as television as a factor in people’s lives and entertainments and the Bible seemed to have no real problem with it, and where indentured servitude and apprenticeships (both of which involved working without being paid for men who could legally whip you and whose service you could not legally leave) where people went to prison for indebtedness You also have to take into account the fact that slavery as practiced in the U.S. was, AFAIK, a fairly unique occurence in history (chattel slavery of a specific ethnic group in perpetuity) and that many other countries (and parts of this one) had already outlawed slavery by this point. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > A Confederate History Month might as well be Stalin Mustache Fetishes month, that is about how American these pea-brained donkey blowers are. What’s wrong with Stalin Mustache Fetishes? ☹ > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > All the raping, whipping, killing, breaking up families, **prohibiting literacy** , denying people their humanity Emphasis added. I think, personally, this is one of the most damning arguments against the contention that people who supported slavery didn’t truly understand, on some level, what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/125 "2010-04-09T15:06:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the American colonists didn’t unilaterally dissolve the union between themselves and the Kingdom of Great Britain? Ending a colony’s servitude to a monarchy is different from and far more justifiable than dissolving a democratic union and severing in two a country founded on greater principles. Or so the North thought in 1861, and it’s nice in retrospect that they believed it so strongly. > [@](#): > > The Northern states were already actively violating the Constitution by refusing to extradite escaped slaves (required by Art IV Sec 2) “The Northern states” were uniformly refusing to do so? A cite on this and the section of the Constitution that validated secession as a means of redress for failure to return escaped slaves would be appreciated. > [@](#): > > …and the nation had just elected a President who had made plain his belief that the nation could not continue to remain half slave-holding, and half free. So naturally provoking a civil war was the only option. I’m surprised that Texas hasn’t already seceded since the last presidential election made plain that Obama would usher in all kinds of socialist horrors. The Executive does whatever it wants, as you know. :dubious: > [@](#): > > …why can’t South Carolina fire on troops seeking to enforce a similar scheme on them? If you’re referring to Fort Sumter, in what **Bricker** -fantasy land were Sumter’s troops seeking to enforce _anything_ on South Carolinians? > [@](#): > > It comes down to this: you believe the underlying cause – slavery – was evil, and so the extreme actions taken in support of it are indefensible. But you believe the American colonists’ actions were perfectly fine, because slavery wasn’t really involved… _even though the American colonies had and supported keeping slaves_. If the colonists had broken away from the British Crown because the Brits were trying to end slavery, that would’ve made the Confederates’ case a lot more compelling. But since that didn’t happen your equivalency is false. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/126 "2010-04-09T15:16:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the American colonists didn’t unilaterally dissolve the union between themselves and the Kingdom of Great Britain? Didn’t they fire on British troops attempting to remove illegal munitions hidden at Concord? Yes, the American colonists were anti-British. Decidely so. Just like the Confederate insurgents were anti-American. And your point is what? > [@](#): > > It comes down to this: you believe the underlying cause – slavery – was evil, and so the extreme actions taken in support of it are indefensible. But you believe the American colonists’ actions were perfectly fine, because slavery wasn’t really involved… _even though the American colonies had and supported keeping slaves_. The American colonists didn’t revolt just to keep slaves, they revolted for other reasons. This is little more than a _tu quoque_ anyway. Yes, the colonists were racist too. Yes, the Founders were guilty of some rather large hypocrisies. How does that justify the Confederates? At least the Founders. Hypocrites though they were, were not _enemies_ of the United States. > [@](#): > > So… I guess some time between 1776 and 1860, it became clear to all reasonable people that slavery was bad, eh? Britain abolished slavery in 1833, so it was clear to them at least, 28 years before the Confederate revolt against the United States. Thomas Jefferson knew it too. He called slavery an “abominable crime,” a “moral depravity,” a “hideous blot,” and a “fatal stain,” among other things. He also advcated for emancipation and tried to prevent slavery from expanding into new territories. Yes, he was a hypocrite, but his words show that it was crystal clear to him that slavery was bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/127 "2010-04-09T15:26:03Z")
What’s the argument? There aren’t too many Virginians in the thread, much less Virginians who voted for Bob McDonnell. I voted for him, and I thought a general Civil War History Month would have been more appropriate. I believe **Bricker** voted for him, and he doesn’t exactly support Confederate History Month either. Some of you seem hell bent on raking a couple of us over the coals because of an insufficient hatred of the Confederacy. Sorry - I can’t muster that up. The institution of slavery was a tragedy and the inability of the political system of this country to address this short of war horribly compounded the human cost of this - but if we accept that this is so, then we all have ownership of it and have to deal with the awful consequences. Amid all of that, am I permitted to admire Lee’s military tactics and the noble manner in which he laid down arms after the war - becoming an elder statesman and educator instead of the resistance leader some wished him to become? You bet. And doing so doesn’t transform me into anything resembling a bigot. Most people of good will would admire these actions of Lee even if they disagreed with much else that he did. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/128 "2010-04-09T15:28:08Z")
You’re allowed to admire Hitler’s drive and ambition, too - but you don’t put up statues of him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/129 "2010-04-09T15:37:35Z")
Should we give the Nazis credit for surrendering too? No one is saying you have to be sufficiently hateful of the Confederacy, by the way, just that it’s obnoxious to defend it as “honorable,” and “heroic,” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/130 "2010-04-09T15:38:45Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Quite alright. Stupid people only fuck up nuance anyway; it’s better they not try at all. Yeah, you keep on defending those racists, good company you keep. :rolleyes: > [@Sampiro](#): > > So is Obama a “race-baiting backwash of a whore’s sour, lotus-boobed milk” because while he’s not a southerner he is a _descendant_ of a Confederate and by your own words the descendants are no better than the original participants. Actually, how is calling a southerner names for what his or her ancestors did different from calling Obama a racial slur since his father was Kenyan? In fact using your- ahem- logic, calling him a spearchucker would be too right since his father in fact chucked spears (one very much[like this](http://www.spraguephoto.com/stock/images/Kenya/07ke529.JPG)) in ceremonies. Fortunately, some people have moved on past their roots. I judge people by their actions. Obama: Above race, doesn’t race-bait, isn’t racist, and in fact tries to whitewash himself because he’s the most scrutinized politician in history Dickhead governor: Proclaims a month dedicated to traitors and pretends slavery didn’t exist until he was called on it. Trying to appeal to more rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth, tea-baggers who are majority white, rednecks, and racist. What you see above is an example of evolution. One person evolved into a normal person despite his upbringing. The other is still dragging his knuckles around shouting about colored people > [@](#): > > Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can’t help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. Thanks. Because you’ve admitted you’re so stupid, I’ll exclusively use the word “Confederates” from now. I’ll make it easier for you by not confusing you with nuance that you can’t handle like “the majority of the South”, “the racists who lived in the South”, or “the traitors who took up arms against the US and lost and now won’t shut up about it 150 years later because it makes their penis shrivel” > [@Frank](#): > > Then nothing must be. Nobody, not Jefferson Davis, not Robert Lee (both indicted but never tried) was convicted for treason after the Civil War. Earlier in our history, former Vice-President Aaron Burr, a traitor if ever there was one, was acquitted. It’s not an easy bar to cross. Sometimes politics get in the way. Not everyone who was ever convicted is guilty and not all who have ever been aquitted were innocent. Fact is, the entire Confederacy should have been tried, convicted, and executed. Now their dirty, animal-fucking descendents roam among us like cockroaches > [@Bricker](#): > > So… even though the Constitution explictly permitted slavery, and the south wished to preserve that, they were being unAmerican and not following the Constitution? Stuff in the Constitution contradicts other stuff. Let me ask you this, today we don’t have slavery, is that unamerican of us? Or do we take our Americaness from the 13th Amendment? If so, are we being unamerican to the original Constitution? Or are we upholding it’s values of freedom and liberty by getting rid of the obviously racist parts that the Founding Fathers were too weak to take out? I choose to believe that our original intent was about things like freedom and liberty for all people, despites color or gender, because at the time, Washington and co. were not strong enough by themselves to force the country into a more egalitarian government. Part of that is their fault, and I will still call them assholes for owning and raping slaves, but they did much good as well. So yeah, the Confederates were being traitors to American values because while slavery was enshrined in our laws, Lincoln was right to proclaim it illegal. If the Confederates were loyal, they would have voted him out and simply elected a pro-slave president and further enshrined it into the Constitution. But they chose to pick up arms and fight instead. No Constitutional amendment, inference, hint, or footnote contains provisions for the legal uprising of states simply because they don’t like parts of the law, no matter how bad it is. You NEVER try to break up the country and call it loyalty, ever. Hell, if Lincoln were to pass a bill requiring everyone to be cannibals, then the Confederates should have eaten human meat while trying to vote him out because you just don’t take up arms against your own government. > [@Bricker](#): > > Apart from the stunning blindness inherent in that view, the fact of the matter is: you have the historical awareness of a mollusk. In 1865, the concept of states’ rights was much different, much stronger than it is today, largely as a result of the Civil War. Robert E Lee famously vowed to follow Virginia, because in his mind and heart, he was a Virginian first, and an American second. That attitude is craxy today; in 1860, it was not uncommon. So basically, he’s a fucking idiot. He might have some small excuse through the infectious zeitgeist of the time, but there’s a reason why we don’t consider Freud’s teachings to be legitimate anymore. Robert E. Lee thought erroneously that states rights trumped federal rights. He was a fucking moron > [@Bricker](#): > > But enough about that. Tell me this: how about the guys like Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson, who rebelled against their lawful authority? Are they equally contemptible? Why not? I have a problem with heriditary monarchy in general, so I don’t give a shit. Yeah, I pick and chooose, get over it. Slavery is bad, racism is bad, and having a king simply because his parents fucked the right people is bad. Killing people who disagree with your racist ass about the above is bad as well, and makes you a traitor, so the Confederates can eat shit and die for all I care > [@villa](#): > > I think it is probably true that the majority of those who fought for the South did not fight to preserve slavery as such, just as the majority of those who fought for the North did not fight to end it. This doesn’t alter the fact that the Confederacy was an evil regime, designed overwhelmingly to perpetrate slavery. As I have siad, I have no time for the leaders, either political or military. But as I can feel for the Afrika Korps conscripts my grandfather lobbed shells at, so I can feel for the Tennessee dirt farmer. Such sympathy doesn’t negate my abhorrence for the Confederacy as an institution any more than it negates my abhorrence for Hitler’s regime. This is really all I care to know about the Confederates. I know their history and I know what they thought was right. It doesn’t move me. I’m not whitewashing anything by saying it’s evil to want to honor them in 2010. We can learn about the Confederates all we want! Hell, I’d take a class on simply the Confederate perspective! But I will NOT, not EVER, honor them. Their sacrifices were shit, they deserved to die and in a horrible ways. Their cities deserved to be burned, their people deserved to be executed. They perpetuated, and tried to continue to perpetuate, and their descendents try continuously mitigate the effects and severity of the darkest and worst chapter of this country. I have no sympathy for Confederate sympathizers. We should have in this country laws prohibiting the lessening and denial of slavery as Germany does for the Holocaust. Anyone who says it gets arrested, governors included. Some of you uncle fucking Confederate lovers can sit there on your high horse from behind a computer and talk shit about those of us who give a damn, but your modern luxuries afford you that right and that privilege. The sheer filth and misery in the life of a slave is such that you guys would break down and suck the dick of Denis Kucinich if you experienced even 1/1000th of what a slave went through during his life. You people can piss on the sacrifice and righteousness of the Union all you want, but the fact is the Confederates were losers and traitors and some of the worse Americans as a group there ever was in the history of this country. All you take for granted would probably not be in existence if not for the North fucking up the Confederates. And you know what? Those Confederates you hold so dear would trade all that and your mothers so they can have even half a black guy to enslave. Fuck the Confederates, they should have all been massacred after the war unless they completely renounced their evil ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/131 "2010-04-09T15:44:38Z")
**Yog** , you’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/132 "2010-04-09T15:50:17Z")
And in related news the governor of Massachusetts has declared June as “Fuck the Confederates, they should have all been massacred after the war unless they completely renounced their evil” heritage month. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/133 "2010-04-09T15:52:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Yog** , you’re stupid. Every time I forget that, he comes back with a post like this. It’s like a public service announcement. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/134 "2010-04-09T15:58:16Z")
Speaking as a Virginian, I’d sign on for a “Fuck the Confederacy” month. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/135 "2010-04-09T15:58:38Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Every time I forget that, he comes back with a post like this. It’s like a public service announcement. Eh, what the hell… he’s in the right forum. He doesn’t have to present a cogent argument here in the Pit, and he’s taken that admonition to heart. Repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/136 "2010-04-09T16:04:53Z")
Virginia is changing rapidly, largely thanks to people like me – educated, professional northern transplants – and others (such as Central American immigrants). Hell, I don’t even consider my part of Virginia to be Southern any more in atmosphere or in character. This kind of cultural backlash is kind of predictable, because this kind of change can panic the natives. But I see it as more of the death throes of a soon-to-be-marginal culture. Long live the South. The South is dead. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/137 "2010-04-09T16:08:11Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Virginia is changing rapidly, largely thanks to people like me – educated, professional northern transplants – and others (such as Central American immigrants). Hey - how about British immigrants? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/138 "2010-04-09T16:11:58Z")
You guys are included in “others,” my friend. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/139 "2010-04-09T16:15:43Z")
Goddamn arrogant Yankee carpetbagger, lumping the mother country in with “others.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/140 "2010-04-09T16:21:53Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Virginia is changing rapidly, largely thanks to people like me – educated, professional northern transplants – and others (such as Central American immigrants). Hell, I don’t even consider my part of Virginia to be Southern any more in atmosphere or in character. Okay, Macaca. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=8)