# Virginia's Governor: What's the Confederacy been up to lately? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409 "2010-04-08T14:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/141 "2010-04-09T16:30:44Z")
/Deleted for being redundant! ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/142 "2010-04-09T16:35:19Z")
To see just how twisted some people are listen to the third hour if you can stomach it. The nation is in deep trouble. [http://libertynewsradio.com/shows/tpc/2010/april/](http://libertynewsradio.com/shows/tpc/2010/april/) ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/143 "2010-04-09T16:40:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, Macaca. OK, we had George Allen (and voted him out). You have Mickey Mouse. I think all things considered that puts us (slightly) higher on the ladder of civilization, though we are both looking upwards at others. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/144 "2010-04-09T16:55:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, Macaca. Uh … you know, only we Macacas get to call each other that. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/145 "2010-04-09T17:00:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So when did that happen? Obviously I’m not asking you for a radar-like zeroing in; I know you’re not saying that on Monday, November 5th, 1523, at 6:18 PM, the scales tipped… but generally, when in human history should a reasonable person have known slavery was evil? I think when you need to whip another human being in order to force him to continue to work for you it is pretty self evident. For example, it’s one thing to expect your wife to stay at home and take care of the house; It’s another when you start to beat her to make her do what you want. If you start with the proposition that people do not know that shackling up human beings, beating them, and forcing their children into slavery is morally wrong, then I don’t see how you can think people are sufficiently advanced to live in a Democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/146 "2010-04-09T17:02:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > OK, we had George Allen (and voted him out). You have Mickey Mouse. I think all things considered that puts us (slightly) higher on the ladder of civilization, though we are both looking upwards at others. It should be noted that Mickey Mouse has offered health and other employee benefits to the partners of gay employees since 1995, and was among the first major corporations in the US to do so. We’ve got a gay governor, for chrissakes. 😃 > [@acsenray](#): > > Uh … you know, only we Macacas get to call each other that. I am. I thought you knew that, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/147 "2010-04-09T17:05:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So when did that happen? Obviously I’m not asking you for a radar-like zeroing in; I know you’re not saying that on Monday, November 5th, 1523, at 6:18 PM, the scales tipped… but generally, when in human history should a reasonable person have known slavery was evil? We don’t have to know when exactly. We apply our current morality to our forebears. I don’t see the problem here. We don’t need to worship our forebears; we’re better off viewing them as human beings who might have gotten a couple of things right but overall were pretty damn sleazy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/148 "2010-04-09T17:45:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am. I thought you knew that, sorry. Noprob. It’s hard to keep trackof all the Macacae. Anyway, I was joking so no need to apologize. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/149 "2010-04-09T17:51:34Z")
So it boils down to - they were on the side of slavery, but the sacrifice of life for cause should still be admired? They behaved nobly and served their leader? Respectfully surrendered when the scales tipped? German troops lost lives, served their leader and surrendered, should we recognize them? Seriously, what’s wrong with this Governor? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/150 "2010-04-09T17:53:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So when did that happen? Obviously I’m not asking you for a radar-like zeroing in; I know you’re not saying that on Monday, November 5th, 1523, at 6:18 PM, the scales tipped… but generally, when in human history should a reasonable person have known slavery was evil? Since they had any ability to emphasize with the people being enslaved. Basically, since always. Of course, you also have to be at least a little specific about the TYPE of slavery. Slavery in ancient Rome, for example was much different than slavery in the Americas. The American chattel slave system was unusually cruel, barbaric and dehumanizing, even by the historical standards of slavery. There was no point in its exsitence where people did not know, or should not have known, that it was evil. This whole angle is specious anyway. If the Nazis could rationalize genocide, does that mean they weren’t committing culpable evil? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/151 "2010-04-09T18:01:01Z")
To those saying that our modern moral standards should not be applied to the American practice of slavery in the 19th Century (and before): Should we also forbear from using our own cultural moral standards regarding the practices in some parts of the world of stoning women and girls for perceivbed religious crimes? How about the practice of having the excutioner publicly rape them if they are virgins (including if they are children) to stay in accordance with the Sharia probitions on executing virgins? Does your moral relativism extend to modern day Saudi Arabia and Iran, or just to 19th century rednecks? If not, what’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/152 "2010-04-09T18:02:44Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Noprob. It’s hard to keep trackof all the Macacae. Shouldn’t be. Aren’t we all doctors, lawyers, accountants or hotel owners? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/153 "2010-04-09T18:12:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > German troops lost lives, served their leader and surrendered, should we recognize them? Where appropriate, yes. I recall when I was on active duty in the Navy we were engaged in joint NATO operations in the Mediterranean. One of the ships we were working with was the [FGS Rommel.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_destroyer_Rommel_%28D187%29) I don’t recall anyone getting a headache over this. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/154 "2010-04-09T18:14:42Z")
_[ahem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel)_ Not all German officers are created equal: > [@](#): > > Rommel is regarded as a chivalrous and humane officer because his Africa corps was never accused of any war crimes. Soldiers captured during his Africa campaign were reported to have been treated humanely; furthermore, he ignored orders to kill captured commandos, Jewish soldiers and civilians in all theaters of his command. > > Late in the war, Rommel was convicted of joining the conspiracy against Adolf Hitler, but he opposed the failed 20 July Plot of 1944 to kill the dictator. Because of his great prestige, Hitler allowed him to commit suicide rather than be tried and executed. He was buried with full military honors; the reason for Rommel’s death only emerged at the Nuremberg Trials. Monty (ie., Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery) even named his dog after Rommel. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/155 "2010-04-09T18:18:59Z")
Right. That’s why I said “where appropriate”. And I don’t see too many people joining campaigns to rename Washington and Lee University. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/156 "2010-04-09T18:20:42Z")
If there were any turncoat Conderate leaders who freed slaves instead of enslaved them, I support building monuments in their honor. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/157 "2010-04-09T18:25:40Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Right. That’s why I said “where appropriate”. And I don’t see too many people joining campaigns to rename Washington and Lee University. Well, I don’t sign on to the complete forgiveness and hero worship of Lee. I think he was overrated as a General (the sheer stupidity of his charge at Gettysburg, inappropriately called Pickett’s Charge alone stands out), but more importantly he violated his oath in defense of a reprehensible regime. I can understadn why he was not imprisoned after the way, but it would have been perfectly justifiable if he had been Similarly, I won’t laud Rommel as much as others do - while he was significantly more “civilized” than many Nazi Officers, he still refused to join the anti-Hitler movement. And early on, like the rest of the military, he was more than happy to sit and pretend that what Hitler was doing was somehow necessary as long as the army got nice shiny new toys to play with. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/158 "2010-04-09T18:37:58Z")
I don’t completely forgive or laud either. Similarly I don’t totally condemn. I probably wouldn’t have stuck hundreds of Lee statues and Lee boulevards all over the South had I had my way. However, naming Washington and Lee University after Lee was appropriate - he was Washington College’s president for a number of years and wrote their honor code. And if the German Navy wants to name a ship after Rommel it really doesn’t hurt me and doesn’t reflect poorly on them. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/159 "2010-04-09T18:40:12Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > And if the German Navy wants to name a ship after Rommel it really doesn’t hurt me and doesn’t reflect poorly on them. If they named it after Adolph would you think differently? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409/160 "2010-04-09T18:42:45Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I don’t completely forgive or laud either. Similarly I don’t totally condemn. > > I probably wouldn’t have stuck hundreds of Lee statues and Lee boulevards all over the South had I had my way. However, naming Washington and Lee University after Lee was appropriate - he was Washington College’s president for a number of years and wrote their honor code. > > And if the German Navy wants to name a ship after Rommel it really doesn’t hurt me and doesn’t reflect poorly on them. Well I lived the first two years here half a block off Lee Highway, and the last three years a block and a half off Jefferson Davis Boulevard, so I certainly know what you mean… 🙂 Lee’s name on the university really doesn’t cause me to lose a lot of sleep. If I visited, I might be tempted to visit his grave after a dozen or so cold ones to water the plants, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginias-governor-whats-the-confederacy-been-up-to-lately/535409.md?page=9)