# Virginity Pledges. Well so much for that idea! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069 "2008-12-29T15:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/1 "2008-12-29T15:50:57Z")
Virginity pledges have been [promoted](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ReproductiveHealth/Story?id=5906523&page=2) as one method of decreasing early sexual activity and consequently sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancies. > [@](#): > > Some reports show as many as one in six American girls between the ages of 12 and 18 take some kind of purity pledge, part of a growing movement that has been buoyed by evangelical fervor and wholesome music idols … But does it work? Anecdotally no. Britney Spears was one famous public virginity pledge and yet per her mother she was having sex by 14. I do not doubt that Bristol Palin made some sort of pledge to her folks. But now some [real data.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28415602/) > [@](#): > > Teenagers who pledge to remain virgins until marriage are just as likely to have premarital sex as those who do not promise abstinence and are significantly less likely to use condoms and other forms of birth control when they do … The findings are reigniting the debate about the effectiveness of abstinence-focused sexual education just as Congress and the new Obama administration are about to reconsider the more than $176 million in annual funding for such programs. … 3,400 students who had not had sex or taken a virginity pledge in 1995. She compared 289 students who were 17 years old on average in 1996, when they took a virginity pledge, with 645 who did not take a pledge but were otherwise similar. She based that judgment on about 100 variables, including their attitudes and their parents’ attitudes about sex and their perception of their friends’ attitudes about sex and birth control. … By 2001, Rosenbaum found, 82 percent of those who had taken a pledge had retracted their promises, and there was no significant difference in the proportion of students in both groups who had engaged in any type of sexual activity, including giving or receiving oral sex, vaginal intercourse, the age at which they first had sex, or their number of sexual partners. More than half of both groups had engaged in various types of sexual activity, had an average of about three sexual partners and had had sex for the first time by age 21 even if they were unmarried. … there was no difference in the rate of sexually transmitted diseases in the two groups, the percentage of students who reported condom use was about 10 points lower for those who had taken the pledge, and they were about 6 percentage points less likely to use any form of contraception. For example, about 24 percent of those who had taken a pledge said they always used a condom, compared with about 34 percent of those who had not. > > Rosenbaum attributed the difference to what youths learn about condoms in abstinence-focused programs. > > “There’s been a lot of work that has found that teenagers who take part in abstinence-only education have more negative views about condoms,” she said. “They tend not to give accurate information about condoms and birth control.” So given this solid evidence that the method not only fails but instead results in more risky behaviors (more _unprotected_ sex) why should any public money go to promotion of virginity pledges or abstinence only programming? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/2 "2008-12-29T16:00:39Z")
I hope and expect that the Obama administration will do away with abstinence only “sex education”. I deal with the fallout from that ill conceived (heh) notion fairly often at work. Lots of emancipations for unwed mothers, lots of divorces from rushed marriages, some domestic violence and/or substance abuse issues…not a pretty picture. A certain percentage of teens are going to have sex. The rest of them will think about sex a lot and wish they were having it. Keeping the information necessary to make informed decisions from them is a failed policy. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/3 "2008-12-29T16:05:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So given this solid evidence that the method not only fails but instead results in more risky behaviors (more _unprotected_ sex) why should any public money go to promotion of virginity pledges or abstinence only programming? It shouldn’t. Phew, that was an easy debate. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/4 "2008-12-29T16:07:29Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > It shouldn’t. Phew, that was an easy debate. 🙂 Yeah, well I am doubtful that anyone will step to the plate to try but thought that I should give them a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/5 "2008-12-29T16:10:52Z")
I wish it weren’t just all about sex on either side. I’d like to see teens educated about relationships, commitment, household budgets, living within means, setting longterm goals, saving for and buying homes, responsible use of credit, and all that sort of thing. It concerns me that we make it all about who sticks what where, while ignoring the larger consequences of interpersonal partnerships. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/6 "2008-12-29T16:16:57Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I wish it weren’t just all about sex on either side. I’d like to see teens educated about relationships, commitment, household budgets, living within means, setting longterm goals, saving for and buying homes, responsible use of credit, and all that sort of thing. It concerns me that we make it all about who sticks what where, while ignoring the larger consequences of interpersonal partnerships. Totally agreed. The only education I got in high school on credit and money were a tiny bit in pre-cal (mostly focused on compound interest), and a nice little chunk in horticulture class, where we learned about how to afford new farm equipment. A mandatory class on Acting Like an Adult would be wonderful. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/7 "2008-12-29T16:19:11Z")
Promoters of abstinence-only sex ed have principles laid down by Gawd Almighty on their side, they don’t need these pesky facts to clutter things up. ---
**Author:** ![wonder9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c57346/32.png) [@wonder9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonder9)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/8 "2008-12-29T16:29:35Z")
As a former public school teacher, the “why don’t we teach them this in school” argument really bugs me. Exactly WHEN during the school day, or school year, or which year, or in place of which OTHER mandatory education do you propose this occur? Schools already do dental screenings, head lice checks, sex education, anti-bullying programs, and all manner of other things because someone thought it should be done in schools. I have no problem with any of those things and agree that schools should provide public service to the community. BUT: We get your kids for 6 and a half to 7 hours a day. One hour of that is lost to lunch, recess or other transition time. Either the days need to get longer or we need to pare down what we teach. Sorry for the rant. Sort of. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/9 "2008-12-29T16:37:50Z")
> [@wonder9](#): > > As a former public school teacher, the “why don’t we teach them this in school” argument really bugs me. Exactly WHEN during the school day, or school year, or which year, or in place of which OTHER mandatory education do you propose this occur? When I was in school, middle school students (7th and 8th grade) had to take a home economics class. This class taught child care, cooking, and sewing. I think they should cut out the sewing unit and substitute a unit on personal finance. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/10 "2008-12-29T16:41:34Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I wish it weren’t just all about sex on either side. I’d like to see teens educated about relationships, commitment, household budgets, living within means, setting longterm goals, saving for and buying homes, responsible use of credit, and all that sort of thing. It concerns me that we make it all about who sticks what where, while ignoring the larger consequences of interpersonal partnerships. This. Call it: Life 101. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/11 "2008-12-29T16:41:34Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > When I was in school, middle school students (7th and 8th grade) had to take a home economics class. This class taught child care, cooking, and sewing. I think they should cut out the sewing unit and substitute a unit on personal finance. They damn sure could have replaced my Greek and Renaissance Lit class. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/12 "2008-12-29T16:43:36Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > They damn sure could have replaced my Greek and Renaissance Lit class. There are still oodles of opportunities at most high schools and middle schools for devoting what is now an elective class to a mandatory Life Experiences class. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/13 "2008-12-29T16:44:08Z")
> [@wonder9](#): > > As a former public school teacher, the “why don’t we teach them this in school” argument really bugs me. Exactly WHEN during the school day, or school year, or which year, or in place of which OTHER mandatory education do you propose this occur? Schools already do dental screenings, head lice checks, sex education, anti-bullying programs, and all manner of other things because someone thought it should be done in schools. I have no problem with any of those things and agree that schools should provide public service to the community. BUT: We get your kids for 6 and a half to 7 hours a day. One hour of that is lost to lunch, recess or other transition time. Either the days need to get longer or we need to pare down what we teach. > Sorry for the rant. Sort of. We could pare down what we teach in some of the general ed stuff - in order to get the “real life” stuff in that people will use. I had a senior social studies course that had some psychology, some sociology, a little econ - basically the whole non-history social sciences set as brief introductions. It was useful to gain an introduction to the supply demand curve - it would have been far more useful to learn about household budgeting for the vast majority of students in the class. Psychology was interesting, Skinner boxes have long been fascinating and I’m not sure how I’d have gotten through life without a basic introduction to Freud - having productive conversations with significant others, understanding the warning signs of an abuser, learning how your own thought patterns can change your emotions (CBT) - much more useful. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/14 "2008-12-29T16:51:18Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There are still oodles of opportunities at most high schools and middle schools for devoting what is now an elective class to a mandatory Life Experiences class. Or in the case of my high school, take a useless mandatory class and turn it into something like this. We had a pair of classes called Physically Active Lifestyles (Gym Lite) and Career and Life Management (I still don’t know what this was supposed to be) that had to be taken to graduate. Pretty useless classes, really. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/15 "2008-12-29T16:56:11Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/16 "2008-12-29T17:00:58Z")
> [@wonder9](#): > > As a former public school teacher, the “why don’t we teach them this in school” argument really bugs me. Exactly WHEN during the school day, or school year, or which year, or in place of which OTHER mandatory education do you propose this occur? Schools already do dental screenings, head lice checks, sex education, anti-bullying programs, and all manner of other things because someone thought it should be done in schools. I have no problem with any of those things and agree that schools should provide public service to the community. BUT: We get your kids for 6 and a half to 7 hours a day. One hour of that is lost to lunch, recess or other transition time. Either the days need to get longer or we need to pare down what we teach. > Sorry for the rant. Sort of. I propose that predominant waste of time known as “gym” as an hour of available time. (Sorry, PE teachers). ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/17 "2008-12-29T17:02:11Z")
> [@wonder9](#): > > As a former public school teacher, the “why don’t we teach them this in school” argument really bugs me. Exactly WHEN during the school day, or school year, or which year, or in place of which OTHER mandatory education do you propose this occur? As a high school math teacher, I agree there is a problem with the current “mandatory” curriculum. But “life skills” would be a far better use of resources than trying to heave little Elmer over the hurdle of factoring quadratics for the third year in a row. To the list of topics already suggested, I would add “What people are agreeing to when they enter a marriage contract.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/18 "2008-12-29T17:04:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So given this solid evidence that the method not only fails but instead results in more risky behaviors (more _unprotected_ sex) why should any public money go to promotion of virginity pledges or abstinence only programming? I don’t see any such solid evidence in your quote. It’s true that, if this study is believed, there’s a correlation between more risky behaviors and abstinence-only education. But where is the causation proof? ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/19 "2008-12-29T17:09:31Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > This. > Call it: Life 101. Amen. I really can’t understand why such a class isn’t standard across the world. I suppose people consider all these things something for parents to teach kids, but so many parents don’t have a bloody clue about them themselves.. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/20 "2008-12-29T17:12:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t see any such solid evidence in your quote. > > It’s true that, if this study is believed, there’s a correlation between more risky behaviors and abstinence-only education. > > But where is the causation proof? This is a fair point. Is there a plausible alternate explanation for this correlation? One explanation that makes sense to me is that kids who take this pledge believe that it’d be a terrible idea to plan to have sex: when they’re thinking rationally, when they’re not in the heat of the moment, they try to follow their pledge. So they don’t obtain contraceptives. When they’re in the heat of the moment, though, they do what people their at their life-stage have been doing for eons: they follow their biological imperative. Perhaps there’s another plausible explanation, and I’d be interested in hearing one. Daniel [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069.md?page=2)