# Virginity Pledges. Well so much for that idea! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069 "2008-12-29T15:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/61 "2008-12-29T22:37:39Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I’m well aware that you meant that to be a speculation and not a fact that the study needs to refute. It’s **Bricker** who I thought took your statement as if it were some hard fact that must be refuted with data. Fair enough. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/62 "2008-12-29T22:40:04Z")
NEWS FLASH: Teenagers are horny and sometimes lie to their parents! Film at 11! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/63 "2008-12-29T22:41:09Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > You can’t tax sex. Well, it would certainly make chartered accountancy a more interesting field . . . ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/64 "2008-12-29T23:10:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > NEWS FLASH: Teenagers are horny and sometimes lie to their parents! Film at 11! Careful with those films! Make sure they are all over 18! ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/65 "2008-12-29T23:11:05Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Stopping sexually mature, post-pubescent humans from fucking is in no way a realistic goal. Unless the price of chastity belts drops. Seriously, though, good point. All it takes for intercourse is a penis and a vagina, and all teens have one of those readily available at all times. Plus of course there are activities that only include one of those, which don’t cause pregnancy but still carry a risk for STDs. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/66 "2008-12-29T23:16:02Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Hmm - Life Skills 101. You mean skills that cover areas like: > **Personal Management** (managing your money), [http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-PERM.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-PERM.aspx) > **Family Life** (doing your share in a family), [http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-FAML.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-FAML.aspx) > **Personal Fitness** (building a program to keep fit, because weight issues in High School are highly correlated with weight issues in adulthood), [http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-PERF.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-PERF.aspx) > Duties of a Citizen (How does the government of your community, nation and world impact you - and how can you be a part of it) > [http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-CITC.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-CITC.aspx) > [http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-CITN.aspx](http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/mb-CITN.aspx) > > If you have sons - get them into Boy Scouts. The required badges for Eagle cover these issues. If you don’t like the Boy Scouts (and I have issues with some of their rules - another thread PLEASE), you will find that the merit badge books for those badges are good little primers for kids 11-17 years old. Unless, of course, they are atheists or homosexuals, in which case they are barred from what should be an excellent organization for teaching boys life skills and self esteem. (Girl Scouts, btw, don’t have that problem - believe in God or not, lesbian or not - they are inclusive. I’m a GSA leader, my son cannot join the BSA). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/67 "2008-12-29T23:18:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What of **LHOD** ’s hypothesized explanation? Where does the study refute that? It doesn’t refute **Left Hand** ’s explanation, but then again **Left Hand** offeres a hypothesis of _how_ the pledge ends up causing more harm than good, not _if_ it does. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/68 "2008-12-29T23:22:11Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Does this study even purport to explain _why_ abstinence pledge makers are less likely to use condoms or other birth control, or is it only saying that they are? They speculate in the discussion section. (Perhaps they are biased in abstinence only that birth control is ineffective.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/69 "2008-12-29T23:26:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > LHOD’s explanation suggests that there’s not a causation relationship – that the people who are moved to take virginity pledges are those who already believe that it’d be a terrible idea to plan to have sex. It’s THAT factor, not the abstinence-only education, that causes the increase in risky behavior. I suggest that you read the linked actual article in _Pediatrics_. That is ruled out. They were matched for beliefs and attitudes, for their perceptions of their peers beliefs and attitudes, and their family’s as well. Both groups were consequently equally fairly religious and conservative in their attitudes. And 4/5ths of those who pledged denied having ever done so. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/70 "2008-12-30T00:13:32Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I made the remark about fiscal responsibility because it seemed like you were suggesting that sex only be taught about in the context of a relationship with joint finances, which would reserve it exclusively for marriage and be virtually the same as a ‘don’t until you’re married’ campaign. People have joint finances all the time without being married. Even roommates who don’t have sex at all have to work out who’s responsible for what. All I’m saying is that financial responsibility is as important to being a functioning adult as sexual responsibility is. (I’m assuming here that you’re not advocating unfettered promiscuity and abdication of all responsibilities to others just so a teen can do what feels good all day long every day, without regard to any consequences.) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/71 "2008-12-30T01:06:34Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So why don’t we respond to the study on abstinence-only education the same way? Why don’t we say that we need more money for abstinence-only education, plus more legal restrictions on the sex industry? Because smoking is an activity that can be abstained from for life without any adverse consequences, but the same can’t be said for sex. Eventually, everybody’s going to have it–if they don’t have it as an unmarried teen they’re pretty sure to have it as a married older person. Do we really want to continue to resist giving our children ALL the information they require to be fully functional adults? Managing sexuality, just like managing hostility, envy, ambition, anger, enthusiasm, and effort are skills a good citizen needs to have in order to function in society without causing undue hardship to others and as such it’s a valid subject for education. I’d like to see age appropriate education in sexuality and relationship skills starting at kindergarten and continuing right on up to a couple years into college. While we’re at it, I’d like to see the other life skills that have been mentioned such as personal and family finances, substance abuse, legal information and other everyday skills taught as well. Not just one class in high school–every year, with new information that’s targeted toward developmental changes in the kids as they grow up. It’s not a new concept–I attended a Montessori school for a couple years in the late '60s and we had those learning units every year. While we’re at it, I’d like to see the same sort of societal disapproval we reserve for smoking used toward modifying social attitudes toward STD’s, poor relationship skills and teen pregnancy as well. Since teens are so peer oriented, knowing that they’re considered to be stupid and loserish for having substandard sexual hygiene and skills would assist mightily in getting our national teen pregnancy/STD statistics into some sort of a reasonable range. Social pressure works–smoking is down to something like 27% of the general population–much lower than it’s been in previous decades. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/72 "2008-12-30T01:17:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > They speculate in the discussion section. (Perhaps they are biased in abstinence only that birth control is ineffective.) Here is the peculation **catsix**. > [@](#): > > Virginity pledgers may be less likely to use condoms and contraception because many abstinence programs cause participants to develop negative attitudes about their effectiveness.7,41 > > More than 90% of abstinence funding does not require that curricula be scientifically accurate,6,9 and a 2004 review found incorrect information in 11 of 13 federally funded abstinence programs, primarily about birth control and condom effectiveness.42 > > Most virginity pledgers reported having had premarital vaginal and oral sex but did not seem to substitute oral and anal sex for vaginal sex, contrary to earlier studies.10 Virginity-pledge programs do not prepare pledgers to protect their health if they have sex, although most pledgers do have sex. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/73 "2008-12-30T01:19:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Here is the peculation **catsix**. 😕 The embezzlement is **where?!** ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/74 "2008-12-30T01:29:19Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It’s curious that when the government first started campaigns against teen smoking, studies found them to be ineffective. Yet nobody responded by saying, “Anti-smoking campaigns. Well so much for that idea!” Instead, society responded by saying (paraphrased), “Obvious we need a lot more money for anti-smoking campaigns, not to mention higher taxes on cigarettes, bans on tobacco advertising, bans on cigarette vending machines, and warning labels on cigarette packages.” > > So why don’t we respond to the study on abstinence-only education the same way? Why don’t we say that we need more money for abstinence-only education, plus more legal restrictions on the sex industry? If the anti-smoking campaign led to an increase in smoking, do you think it deserves more money? If there had been something to put over a ciggie which would reduce the chances of getting lung cancer, do you think it would have been right to withhold that information from students in order to scare them more about the dangers of smoking? Regular sex education seems to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies - is this less important than your moral orthodoxy? Any evidence that the “sex industry” has anything to do with this problem - unless you count most movies, lots of TV shows and ads as part of the sex industry. I don’t know about you, but I grew up in a more restricted environment, and I didn’t need Madonna or rap or R rates movies to think about sex. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/75 "2008-12-30T02:44:52Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > You can’t tax sex. If you could, it would open up a popular new professional specialty - certified pubic accountant. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/76 "2008-12-30T02:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Smart Aleq** said: > I’d like to see age appropriate education in sexuality and relationship skills starting at kindergarten and continuing right on up to a couple years into college. In college? Really? I don’t think I would’ve been too fond of that idea. In fact, I know I wouldn’t. I spent my years in university working my ass off to get an engineering degree. Another two years of relationship skills would not have been helpful in any sort of way. In fact, once I had the whole birth control thing figured out, the rest was pretty much useless. There was a lot of stuff about getting married and having kids – neither of which are even remotely goals of mine. > [@](#): > > Since teens are so peer oriented, knowing that they’re considered to be stupid and loserish for having substandard sexual hygiene and skills would assist mightily in getting our national teen pregnancy/STD statistics into some sort of a reasonable range. Other than the recent media craze with the celebrity teenage mothers, I think you can count on it already being the case that teenagers don’t typically find pregnant teenagers cool. As for STDs, well, if someone in my HS was said to have an STD this was not a compliment of any sort. > [@](#): > > **Liberal** said: > (I’m assuming here that you’re not advocating unfettered promiscuity and abdication of all responsibilities to others just so a teen can do what feels good all day long every day, without regard to any consequences.) I have absolutely no problem with promiscuity as long as everyone is up front about what they’re in it for, and the participants are responsible about practicing safe sex. Just to make sure we’re clear, that also means that if you have an STD, you best be up front about it to anyone who you’re trying to have sex with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/77 "2008-12-30T02:47:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If there had been something to put over a ciggie which would reduce the chances of getting lung cancer . . . There is, come to think of it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/78 "2008-12-30T02:52:17Z")
The most important thing most people in this thread are forgetting is that 99% of these programs will suck. I personally had both “Health” and “Life Skills” classes, and I can testify that they were some of the most useless classes I’ve ever had (especially the latter). And I go to a (secular) private school. It’s a vicious circle: the classes are crap because no good teachers want to teach them, the teenagers don’t listen because it’s crap, and no good teachers want to teach teenagers who won’t listen to them. The most important societal change that can happen is for people to actually believe that premarital sex can be reduced. Right now, to even suggest that it’s possible (let alone desirable) will get you laughed at. You’ve got the people on one side saying “boys will be boys, and there’s no stopping it” and the others on the opposite end saying that it’s a “genetic imperative” and cannot possibly be controlled. The problem is that it’s a completely mixed message: “Don’t have sex (but we know you will anyway; here’s a condom).” Now, I support comprehensive sex education, if only to prevent society from having to deal with the children of the ones who aren’t going to listen. And, of course, “virginity pledges” alone are going to be completely ineffective because no one is going to change his worldview because of what some “Life Skills” teacher tells him. There needs to be a consistent message, one that is applicable to boys as well as girls, against premarital sex from within and without the teenagers’ peer groups, but that message is not there. It hasn’t been there for years (and one that doesn’t create a double standard for boys and girls has never been there). That’s what I think needs to be done to decrease premarital sex (and, by extension, teenage pregnancy). Now, do I think it will happen? Unless society turns around in a way I’m not expecting, unfortunately, no. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/79 "2008-12-30T03:16:13Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > There needs to be a consistent message, one that is applicable to boys as well as girls, against premarital sex from within and without the teenagers’ peer groups, but that message is not there. It hasn’t been there for years (and one that doesn’t create a double standard for boys and girls has never been there). > > That’s what I think needs to be done to decrease premarital sex (and, by extension, teenage pregnancy). Now, do I think it will happen? Unless society turns around in a way I’m not expecting, unfortunately, no. and exactly why would you want to decrease premarital sex? why would anyone want to put a stop to premarital sex? what makes this a goal worth even considering let alone pursuing? \<-----isnt married, and likes sex ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/80 "2008-12-30T03:17:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Vox Imperatoris** said: > There needs to be a consistent message, one that is applicable to boys as well as girls, against premarital sex from within and without the teenagers’ peer groups, but that message is not there. It’s not a realistic message for most people. If you don’t get married until you’re 30 or 40 years old, waiting until you get married isn’t very realistic. It’s not necessarily true for everyone that they need to attach sex to a relationship, or to love, or what have you. It’s never been the case in the history of the human race that people have waited 20 years after they’re past puberty before they start having sex. Biology is not on your side with this one. > [@](#): > > That’s what I think needs to be done to decrease premarital sex (and, by extension, teenage pregnancy). Now, do I think it will happen? Unless society turns around in a way I’m not expecting, unfortunately, no. You take it as a given that everyone agrees about the nobility of your goal to reduce pre-marital sex. This is not the case. I think that it would be far, far better to set the goal as a reduction in unwanted pregnancies (this includes teenage pregnancy) and STD infections. Those goals are realistic, and potentially attainable. I have no problem with teaching young people that abstinence is one way to prevent both pregnancy and STDs. I don’t have a problem with teaching them that they may choose abstinence for a number of reasons including their own personal feelings about when it’s right for them to have sex. I have a big problem with setting an unrealistic goal (to stop unmarried people from having sex) and making that the only thing that is ever taught. > [@](#): > > **Critical1** said: > \<-----isnt married, and likes sex Same here, buddy. For the last fourteen years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069.md?page=5)