# Virginity Pledges. Well so much for that idea! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069 "2008-12-29T15:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/81 "2008-12-30T03:26:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > …so you put them in places where they can’t hurt anything–like in school suspension, or health, or **economics** , or “life skills”… (pretending your entire post whooshed me except that bit) You mean I coulda taken Econ in HS and it woulda been an easy A? Cuz I’m reading up on it some and, between the overreliance on math and the preposterous suggestions of how a real market works, it’s not coming together in my head. 😉 Oh, and what **catsix** and **Critical1** said about sex. Coming to Econ from an Anthropology background, what some people expect humans, especially teenaged humans, to do can be hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/82 "2008-12-30T03:36:16Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > The most important societal change that can happen is for people to actually believe that premarital sex can be reduced. :dubious: And what is the value of the people believing an illusion? Especially one that is not, in and of itself, even desirable? Premarital sex is mostly harmless, **even healthy,** so long as it does not lead to STD transmission or unwanted pregnancy. The most important societal change would be for people to acknowledge **that.** ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/83 "2008-12-30T04:12:05Z")
Abstinence is not a worthwhile goal. Virginity is not a virtue. The goal is not less sex. The goal is to reduce unwanted pregnancies and STDs, so let’s start handing out condoms and teaching kids how to use them. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex. It can be risky, but that risk is manageable. One must only stay informed and prepared. That formula is useful in other areas of life, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/84 "2008-12-30T04:20:44Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > The most important thing most people in this thread are forgetting is that 99% of these programs will suck. I personally had both “Health” and “Life Skills” classes, and I can testify that they were some of the most useless classes I’ve ever had (especially the latter). And I go to a (secular) private school. It’s a vicious circle: the classes are crap because no good teachers want to teach them, the teenagers don’t listen because it’s crap, and no good teachers want to teach teenagers who won’t listen to them. > > The most important societal change that can happen is for people to actually believe that premarital sex can be reduced. Right now, to even suggest that it’s possible (let alone desirable) will get you laughed at. You’ve got the people on one side saying “boys will be boys, and there’s no stopping it” and the others on the opposite end saying that it’s a “genetic imperative” and cannot possibly be controlled. The problem is that it’s a completely mixed message: “Don’t have sex (but we know you will anyway; here’s a condom).” Now, I support comprehensive sex education, if only to prevent society from having to deal with the children of the ones who aren’t going to listen. And, of course, “virginity pledges” alone are going to be completely ineffective because no one is going to change his worldview because of what some “Life Skills” teacher tells him. There needs to be a consistent message, one that is applicable to boys as well as girls, against premarital sex from within and without the teenagers’ peer groups, but that message is not there. It hasn’t been there for years (and one that doesn’t create a double standard for boys and girls has never been there). > > That’s what I think needs to be done to decrease premarital sex (and, by extension, teenage pregnancy). Now, do I think it will happen? Unless society turns around in a way I’m not expecting, unfortunately, no. > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris 😕 if you want a consistent message about abstinencean then your goal must not be to reduce teen pregnancies and STDs because the studies are in and abstinence messages don’t work. Everyone has sex, no matter how consistent is the message about abstinence they receive. ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/85 "2008-12-30T05:28:53Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > The most important societal change that can happen is for people to actually believe that premarital sex can be reduced. I couldn’t disagree more. That’s tail-wags-dog thinking. The Dutch have much lower STD and teen pregnancy rates than the US. How do they do it? They accept active sexuality in teenagers, and emphasize responsibility. How novel: accept what is, and make the best of it. Let’s give it a try. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/86 "2008-12-30T07:07:00Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > There needs to be a consistent message, one that is applicable to boys as well as girls, against premarital sex from within and without the teenagers’ peer groups, but that message is not there. It hasn’t been there for years (and one that doesn’t create a double standard for boys and girls has never been there). > > That’s what I think needs to be done to decrease premarital sex (and, by extension, teenage pregnancy). Now, do I think it will happen? Unless society turns around in a way I’m not expecting, unfortunately, no. > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris We’re talking teen sex, not premarital sex in general. Through a lot of history there has been a consistent message, It didn’t work. It has never worked. Society managed to hide it by sending the pregnant girls away and putting the children up for adoption. Or forcing marriage. In Shakespeare’s time many if not most brides were pregnant. The simple solution to the problem is to find a good reason, like regularizing periods, to put every teen over 15 or so on birth control. It might increase the amount of teen sex, but that is something I’m willing to accept for a big decrease in pregnancies - and abortions. If you want to have some kids sign a virginity pledge also, fine with me. They still won’t get pregnant if they lapse. I’m too geezerly to know this for sure, but isn’t it possible that the decline in teen pregnancy is related to the acceptance of oral sex instead of intercourse? ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/87 "2008-12-30T07:51:31Z")
Like “just say no”, abstinence only sex ed is a massive failure. No surprise. Better on both counts to offer scientific, objective, non-biased information. There should be no place for “sex ed” including morality based on religion in the public schools. Just the facts, ma’am. Fact is, teenagers fuck. They always have and they always will. The only question is if they are informed and enabled enough to do so responsibly or not. I think the data indicating more risky behaviour in those participating in an abstinence only approach most likely indicates a mind-set of denial…if you refuse to accept that sex among physically mature individuals is natural and not a sin, you are far less likely to accept responsibility for contraception/STD protection should the event arise. Both out of not “planning on it” or wanting to be seen as planning on it :rolleyes: or out of some subconscious idea that IF you have sex, you SHOULD get pregnant or infected. All that said, not a damn thing wrong with prolonging virginity a while, intentionally or not. But let’s be real. Most don’t, and to pretend otherwise and offer half-assed “education” aimed at that fantasy is a form of religious descrimination, imo. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/88 "2008-12-30T08:58:59Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > The only question is if they are informed and enabled enough to do so responsibly or not. Unfortunately, that is not the only question. There is also the question of whether they are _capable_ of doing so responsibly. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/89 "2008-12-30T09:38:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … > But now some [real data.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28415602/) > So given this solid evidence that the method not only fails but instead results in more risky behaviors (more _unprotected_ sex) why should any public money go to promotion of virginity pledges or abstinence only programming? I can’t think of anything more vulgar. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/90 "2008-12-30T18:11:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It doesn’t refute **Left Hand** ’s explanation, but then again **Left Hand** offeres a hypothesis of _how_ the pledge ends up causing more harm than good, not _if_ it does. I misunderstood **LHOD** ’s thesis, it seems. > [@DSeid](#): > > I suggest that you read the linked actual article in _Pediatrics_. That is ruled out. They were matched for beliefs and attitudes, for their perceptions of their peers beliefs and attitudes, and their family’s as well. Both groups were consequently equally fairly religious and conservative in their attitudes. And 4/5ths of those who pledged denied having ever done so. I missed that link. Can you point out where it is, or repost? Thanks… ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/91 "2008-12-30T18:29:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I missed that link. Can you point out where it is, or repost? Thanks… Linked in post #35. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/92 "2008-12-30T18:37:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I misunderstood **LHOD** ’s thesis, it seems. Me too. Nevertheless, it doesn’t take much imagination to come up with ways pledge takers could get more STD’s, and for the relationship not to be _causal_. Yes, the people studied all have the same backgrounds. However, I don’t see how the study \*could \*account for those predisposed to think premarital sex was wrong without forcing teens who think premarital sex is OK to sign up, and not allowing teens who think it’s wrong to pledge. The fact is, some teens went in thinking premarital sex was wrong, and they were probably more likely to take the pledge. So the cause of both signing up and later being ill-prepared when caving in to instinct could be the pre-existing belief that pre-marital sex is wrong. The pledge-signing didn’t do them in - they would have been ill-prepared even if they hadn’t taken the pledge. Big Fat Whatever. Pledging is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/93 "2008-12-30T18:41:42Z")
I’ve heard the argument made that we don’t teach kids how to use drugs safely, etc. so why would we teach them how to have sex safely (this relates to the earlier post about initial effectiveness of anti-smoking campaigns). The answer is that absent any social/peer pressure, humans will want to have sex but will not seek drugs or cigarettes. One scenario I’ve read is that some teens who’ve taken abstinence pledges don’t intend to have sex but just get carried away. Therefore they haven’t prepared with birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/94 "2008-12-30T18:42:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One explanation that makes sense to me is that kids who take this pledge believe that it’d be a terrible idea to plan to have sex: when they’re thinking rationally, when they’re not in the heat of the moment, they try to follow their pledge. So they don’t obtain contraceptives. This rings true. While (hopefully) this is less and less the case, there are women who insist on condom use but won’t carry them so as not to give the impression that they’d be so bold as to anticipate sex. I’d be interested to know what sort of setting teens are in when they take their pledges, if it’s something done in a ‘public’ setting (e.g. church group or classroom). Also, what sort of education and info the teens are given. As someone mentioned, when condoms are brought up in abstinence only education, it’s to claim that they [don’t work](http://www.prolife.com/CONDOMS.html) (and not with the intention of encouraging people to use back-up BC methods). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/95 "2008-12-31T14:53:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We’re talking teen sex, not premarital sex in general. Through a lot of history there has been a consistent message, It didn’t work. It has never worked. Society managed to hide it by sending the pregnant girls away and putting the children up for adoption. Or forcing marriage. In Shakespeare’s time many if not most brides were pregnant. > The simple solution to the problem is to find a good reason, like regularizing periods, to put every teen over 15 or so on birth control. It might increase the amount of teen sex, but that is something I’m willing to accept for a big decrease in pregnancies - and abortions. If you want to have some kids sign a virginity pledge also, fine with me. They still won’t get pregnant if they lapse. > > I’m too geezerly to know this for sure, but isn’t it possible that the decline in teen pregnancy is related to the acceptance of oral sex instead of intercourse? And married younger. Really, if you marry your daughters off starting at fifteen or so in marriages that are often more or less arranged, you have far fewer worries about pre-martial sex. Teen sex still happens. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/96 "2008-12-31T15:20:34Z")
If you want to prevent teen sex teach them to be socially awkward and inept. It sure prevented me from sex as a teen. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/97 "2008-12-31T15:44:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I am just rambling at this point, but it seems to me, after years of teaching High School, that what we really need, for both sex and money, are programs --for both sex and money–that are designed to deal with the fact that teenagers don’t just lack knowledge, they think differently than adults. I know that there is research out there about how the decision making part of the brain is the latest to develop, and I’ve seen it myself countless times: many teenagers cannot process probabilities and risk/reward accurately, even when they have all the information–they may know everything there is to know about sex and disease and pregnancy (or spending or saving or debt, or drinking and drugs and driving), but they figure if there’s a 50% chance it will be all right, then they figure they will get lucky every single time. It’s why you have to be consistent with kids–if an exception has ever been made, they assume it will be made again the next time, no matter how often that has failed to happen. > > None of the programs I’ve ever seen really deal with this. They all work from the idea that teenagers are basically rational and will make rational choices if given information. And many of them are. But many of them simply are not, and if somebody really wanted to make the world a better place, they’d come up with a way to overcome this. This is a very important point. People in general, teenagers but also adults, are much much less rational in their thinking than we like to think. If people were rational thinkers there would be many fewer conflicts and problems in the world. What made adult people aware that smoking causes cancer was not the scientific facts. Those were known long before it was accepted by society. It was the constant hammering of the message “smoking causes cancer” for a long, long time. Same thing for drunk driving etc. That the message may be true may help only so slightly but it is the constant repetition and societal pressure which condition us much more. If the message is repeated often enough even false messages can be widespread and can be seen multiple times in history. Now, if that is true with adults, it is a hundred times truer with teenagers with raging hormones. I still rememebr when I was 20 and at that age I did not think much of consequences or of anything else except that I wanted, I needed, I _desperately_ needed to get laid. I’d deal with the consequences later assuming there _were_ any consequences. For now let’s just take our clothes off. As they say, you cannot reason someone out of a position where they did not arrive by reason. Teenagers want to fuck (just like the rest of us only much more so), not because they have thought about it and concluded it is a good thing but because their raging hormones direct them that way. Giving them all sorts of technical explanations about the workings of the mammalian body might be good but it will perceived as quite disconnected from their most urgent need which is getting laid. In my view it is futile to try to lay on schools the entire responsibility of the education of kids. Schools may teach a few bits of technical knowledge but the bulk of the core values are learnt at home by example. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/98 "2008-12-31T19:44:42Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I wish it weren’t just all about sex on either side. I’d like to see teens educated about relationships, commitment, household budgets, living within means, setting longterm goals, saving for and buying homes, responsible use of credit, and all that sort of thing. It concerns me that we make it all about who sticks what where, while ignoring the larger consequences of interpersonal partnerships. Sorry, there are no standardized tests for those. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/99 "2008-12-31T20:52:07Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > If you want to prevent teen sex teach them to be socially awkward and inept. It sure prevented me from sex as a teen. We should hand out video games in the schools. My NES worked to keep me at home and not out having sex when I was in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069/100 "2008-12-31T21:58:36Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And married younger. > > Really, if you marry your daughters off starting at fifteen or so in marriages that are often more or less arranged, you have far fewer worries about pre-martial sex. Teen sex still happens. When I was a kid it was still a no-no, and people weren’t getting married at 15. Though I admit I didn’t live in Arkansas. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virginity-pledges-well-so-much-for-that-idea/479069.md?page=6)