# Virtue signaling? Cowardice? Or other (race relations topic) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 8, 2021, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821 "2021-06-08T06:29:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stuccosuperstar2020](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@stuccosuperstar2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuccosuperstar2020)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/1 "2021-06-08T06:29:33Z")
My company took part in an outdoor garden show this weekend, and as part of our display we placed “Please do not sit on the furniture” signs on the chairs we had as part of it (there are many reasons for this which for now does not appear germane to the story). Furthermore, the furniture was under a pergola where there was a lot of shade, and many customers stopped to rest within the protection of the pergola, many while making joking comments about not being able to sit. Out of nowhere, despite the signs saying otherwise, what appeared to be a fairly healthy and definitely black woman sat on the furniture. You should have seen the looks and heard the snickers from the white people under the pergola. I immediately snuck out of the display. As a middle aged white man, not only was I not going to ask a black woman to not sit on our furniture, I immediately feared one of the other costumers would make some smart comment, or worse, demand I tell her to stand up. The last thing I wanted to get involved with was being part of a news story where the mean middle aged white guy told a black woman she could not have a seat in our display, and how that would paint me and my company with enraging headlines. Not only that but my company would then have to defend itself saying it was clear there were signs asking her to not do so, and fair or not, me possibly having to fall on a sword for PR reasons. That was my flight-or-fright instinct, however when I took that break from our display, a more enlightened thought crossed my mind: how many times in her life has this black woman been told by middle aged white men where to sit, where to stand, what she can do, what she can’t do? Why should I be part of that regardless of the publicity issue I was concerned about? At the end of the day, I returned to the display, and she and all the white people that saw her sit were gone anyway. There was no invasion of black people taking over all the seating, or a bunch of white people taking over the seating to say “if they can we can”, and hopefully there was not a white outcry, it appears it was simply a black woman either not seeing or ignoring all the signs and harmlessly cooling off her heels for a few moments. The one thing this minor incident taught me is as a white man I need to spend extra time thinking about how to interact with minorities, and while today worked out, be prepared that the next time the circumstances might be more complicated and try even harder to see it from someone else’s point of view. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/2 "2021-06-08T06:45:42Z")
First off, you may as well tell us why you didn’t want people sitting on the furniture, bc people are gonna bug you about it. I think, you overthink these things. If it were me, I just would have said: "ma’am? And then pointed to the sign. If that didn’t work, either let it go or call security if it’s really that important people don’t sit on the furniture. ---
**Author:** ![stuccosuperstar2020](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@stuccosuperstar2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuccosuperstar2020)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/3 "2021-06-08T06:51:16Z")
So I should chalk you off as “Virtue Signaling”? 😀 😀 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/4 "2021-06-08T07:03:43Z")
It’s awful for you that the upshot of our history of persecution of Black people by White people is this troubling and stressful situation where you weren’t sure how to act. Black people (especially the _definitely_ Black people) are in such a privileged position, they don’t know what it feels like to experience this kind of embarrassment. They just don’t understand how awkward life can be for a well-meaning middle-aged White man when he’s around Black people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/5 "2021-06-08T07:54:36Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > The last thing I wanted to get involved with was being part of a news story where the mean middle aged white guy told a black woman she could not have a seat in our display, and how that would paint me and my company with enraging headlines. Is that what you see in those “enraging headlines”? Massive uproar merely because someone is asked to move from a reserved seat? 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/6 "2021-06-08T08:01:50Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > The one thing this minor incident taught me is as a white man I need to spend extra time thinking about how to interact with minorities, and while today worked out, be prepared that the next time the circumstances might be more complicated and try even harder to see it from someone else’s point of view. > > Thoughts? If you want some good advice on what you should do, I suggest you go to a message board run by African-Americans and repost your OP word-for-word, and then take _their_ advice. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/7 "2021-06-08T08:26:16Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > Out of nowhere, despite the signs saying otherwise, what appeared to be a fairly healthy and definitely black woman sat on the furniture. …if it were a healthy and definitely white woman what would you say? If it were a healthy and definitely white man what would you say? Why would you say something different if it was definitely a black woman? It sounds like the reasons are germane to the story. It might explain the “looks” and the “snickers”. ---
**Author:** ![stuccosuperstar2020](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@stuccosuperstar2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuccosuperstar2020)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/8 "2021-06-08T09:03:33Z")
Wow I can already tell what an awful message board this is by smart-ass answers like this. First you took my “definitely” comment out of context, and yes, with the growth of BLM and more education from the media, life is not awkward for the “well-meaning middle aged White man” its just many of them like me want to learn and do better. How HORRIBLE! ---
**Author:** ![stuccosuperstar2020](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@stuccosuperstar2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuccosuperstar2020)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/9 "2021-06-08T09:11:22Z")
Id be happy to do so if you could provide me with a link. As for enraging headlines, just go on Google there are a ton of what seem to be micro-aggressions and peccadillos committed against black people that entitled white people scratch their heads over that black people find highly offensive that are either legitimate or snowball into major news stories. Why not keep our eyes and ears open? And why should I put my company and myself through this? ---
**Author:** ![stuccosuperstar2020](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@stuccosuperstar2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuccosuperstar2020)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/10 "2021-06-08T09:22:11Z")
Wow another someone taking me remark out of context. One year we did have an elderly white woman with a cane, and who did not look well, beg us to let her sit in out chairs. It was obvious she was struggling, and we let her sit down and gave her water. It was obviously a medical emergency. I saw the black woman, she just walked up and sat in the chair and immediately the white people nearby made smart comments. WHATEVER. Like I said, why be the middle aged white guy kicking her out of my booth that could be spun in the media at worst, at best another middle aged white jerk who inconvenienced her? When am I going to get credit for realizing to just let this go? Why not cut the black woman a break, for a few times in her life? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/11 "2021-06-08T09:31:16Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > Like I said, why be the middle aged white guy kicking her out of my booth that could be spun in the media at worst, at best another middle aged white jerk who inconvenienced her? So, given the information you provided, it sounds like a case of social cowardice to me. You were put in a bit of an awkward position and decided the best thing to do is just pretend you were not in charge. You used the Black People Have Endured Centuries Of Oppression excuse for not simply handling the situation the way you would if virtually anyone else failed to read and obey the sign. If you will accept a tip from a white person for future reference, for what that’s worth, I suggest you treat black people the way you would like to be treated yourself. You know, the Golden Rule. Would you like to have someone let you mistakenly sit in a furniture display and expose yourself to ridicule? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/12 "2021-06-08T09:31:18Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > Wow another someone taking me remark out of context. …without knowing why they weren’t allowed to sit on the chairs we don’t have any context. Why weren’t they allowed to not sit on the chairs? > [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > One year we did have an elderly white woman with a cane, and who did not look well, beg us to let her sit in out chairs. It was obvious she was struggling, and we let her sit down and gave her water. It was obviously a medical emergency. My question to you was “if it were a healthy and definitely white woman what would you say? If it were a healthy and definitely white man what would you say?” This wasn’t a healthy and definitely white woman. If it were, what would you say? > [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > I saw the black woman, she just walked up and sat in the chair and immediately the white people nearby made smart comments. Why would they make smart comments? Why did the snicker? Would they have snickered or made smart comments if it were a healthy and definitely white woman? > [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > WHATEVER. Like I said, why be the middle aged white guy kicking her out of my booth that could be spun in the media at worst, at best another middle aged white jerk who inconvenienced her? Do you actually have a good reason why people weren’t allowed to sit on the furniture? If you do, then why would anyone want to “spin” things? Just tell her she isn’t allowed to sit on the furniture and be done with it. > [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > When am I going to get credit for realizing to just let this go? Were you after credit? Is that the point of this thread? > [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > Why not cut the black woman a break, for a few times in her life? Because you had a rule in place that said people weren’t allowed to sit on the furniture. Why did you have that rule? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/13 "2021-06-08T11:25:40Z")
Well meaning suggestion: don’t display furniture that you don’t want people to sit on. You might as well have a chocolate fountain running with bowls of strawberries and marshmallows adjacent and a “DO NOT EAT” sign. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/14 "2021-06-08T11:33:39Z")
Acquire a half dozen folding chairs, to deploy where people CAN sit, maybe? Did you do that thing, where they tie a ribbon across the chair seat, from arm to arm? That’s what they do at festivals to keep people from sitting in the antiques. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/15 "2021-06-08T11:45:12Z")
I’m disappointed that some of you are beating this guy up over this. Living and working in an urban environment has shown me that his concerns are valid. African-Americans themselves have a phrase for this; “playing the race card”. It’s done all the time. I’ve also personally seen and experienced situations involving what is termed as “reverse racism” that, had they instead been white on Black, might have made the evening news. That’s just reality, and acknowledging it and being concerned about it doesn’t make someone a bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/16 "2021-06-08T12:29:54Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > As a middle aged white man, not only was I not going to ask a black woman to not sit on our furniture, I immediately feared one of the other costumers would make some smart comment, or worse, demand I tell her to stand up. > > The last thing I wanted to get involved with was being part of a news story where the mean middle aged white guy told a black woman she could not have a seat in our display, and how that would paint me and my company with enraging headlines. There’s no reason to be afraid of black people, you know. If anyone is not doing what they should be, they should be called out on it just like you would have called out some white middle-aged Karen type. ---
**Author:** ![GeneralTang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@GeneralTang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GeneralTang)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/17 "2021-06-08T13:16:53Z")
I also do not understand why the OP is being beaten up on. By my reading, he isn’t afraid of black people, but how strangers will react and the media. Which makes complete sense to me. It isn’t cowardice to want to avoid making a scene, that is entirely normal. Everyone has made a similar calls at one point or another. I’m not going to say that the OP is right, or that I would have taken the same or different action at the time (I don’t know, I wasn’t there). But his actions seem entirely reasonable. Which the exception of OP’s post above asking for recognition, it doesn’t at all sound like virtue signaling, as who was the OP trying to signal virtue to? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/18 "2021-06-08T14:14:32Z")
> [@stuccosuperstar2020](#): > > So I should chalk you off as “Virtue Signaling”? 😀 😀 😀 This seems like an unnecessarily jerkish response to an answer given in good faith. On the other hand, you aren’t alone. A lot of the responses to the OP seem a bit hostile for MPSIPS, given the story that started this discussion. Guys, this isn’t great debates or P&E, it’s MPSIMS. Questions, disagreement and well-meaning advice are expected. But at least for a first pass, please try to interpret each other’s posts assuming they were made in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/19 "2021-06-08T14:16:39Z")
If you had a minority employee nearby (especially a woman), you could ask him/her to be the one to ask the black woman to get off the furniture. That would lessen the optics problem. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821/20 "2021-06-08T14:22:40Z")
Though that has its own issues, doesn’t it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling-cowardice-or-other-race-relations-topic/943821.md?page=2)