# "Virtue Signaling" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565 "2020-06-12T21:19:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/41 "2020-06-13T11:27:44Z")
So here’s a question: when does “virtue signaling” become virtue? For the right wing, as far as I can tell, it never does. The point I’m trying to make here is that for those who invented the phrase, _everything white people do in solidarity with oppressed minorities is virtue signaling._ Because there can be no imaginable reason to cast your lot with those less privileged unless you are just trying to make yourself look good. That is the difference between ordinary hypocrisy and this new coinage. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/42 "2020-06-13T12:12:34Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > So here’s a question: when does “virtue signaling” become virtue? For the right wing, as far as I can tell, it never does. > > The point I’m trying to make here is that for those who invented the phrase, everything white people do in solidarity with oppressed minorities is virtue signaling. Because there can be no imaginable reason to cast your lot with those less privileged unless you are just trying to make yourself look good. > > That is the difference between ordinary hypocrisy and this new coinage. The term does not necessarily indicate hypocrisy or insincerity. It’s principally about egotism. Your comment is like saying “why is it a bad thing to be generous?”. It’s not, and you may genuinely _be_ generous - but it’s still a bad thing if you constantly brag about your generosity and insinuate that other people are stingy. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/43 "2020-06-13T12:22:03Z")
A recent example of virtue signalling on the SDMB: the defenders of Huey Freeman in his long thread. By around post 1000 I had got sick of his divisive nastiness, and posted something critical of _his_ bigotry. And I recall one poster saying “well, it’s important for those with privilege to _listen_…”. Which is certainly a valid point in general terms. But after 25 pages of listening, we are allowed to engage our brains and form an opinion. A few people in that thread were so concerned about being seen as the woke ally of an oppressed black man that they were apparently prepared to overlook _any_ level of egregious assholery from this particular man. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/44 "2020-06-13T12:35:07Z")
I enjoy when I see virtue signalling to show how against virtue signalling one is. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/45 "2020-06-13T12:40:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The term does not necessarily indicate hypocrisy or insincerity. It’s principally about egotism. Your comment is like saying “why is it a bad thing to be generous?”. It’s not, and you may genuinely _be_ generous - but it’s still a bad thing if you constantly brag about your generosity and insinuate that other people are stingy. Well, this of course truly exists and we will be seeing more it. But I don’t see it used that way on the right, or rather, I see it used for that and everything else liberals do. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/46 "2020-06-13T12:40:57Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I enjoy when I see virtue signalling to show how against virtue signalling one is. And I enjoy how you are signalling that you’re _even more_ virtuous that those criticizing virtue signalling, because you’re above such criticism, right? > **[Atheists](https://xkcd.com/774/)** > > 'But you're using that same tactic to try to feel superior to me, too!' 'Sorry, that accusation expires after one use per conversation.' ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/47 "2020-06-13T12:44:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And I enjoy how you are signalling that you’re _even more_ virtuous that those criticizing virtue signalling, because you’re above such criticism, right? > > [xkcd: Atheists](https://xkcd.com/774/) That you can’t see the irony in this is not surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/48 "2020-06-13T12:47:09Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Well, this of course truly exists and we will be seeing more it. But I don’t see it used that way on the right, or rather, I see it used for that and everything else liberals do. Of course I agree that (like the term SJW) it’s widely used by conservatives as an _ad hominem_ to try undermine _any_ decent moral position held by social progressives. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/49 "2020-06-13T12:56:53Z")
Examples include: Using slogans Political posters in the yard Wearing particular pins Flag rituals Social media posts Displaying [XYZ] “in support of” [ABC] Telling everyone how you went to a march or rally Its about telling people (not necessarily with words) that you are aligned with a position you and your group see as virtuous. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. Especially if it is coupled with actual action. And it’s certainly not only something liberals do. A MAGA hat fits even if I personally don’t associate any virtue there. An early use of the term: > **[Easy virtue](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/easy-virtue/)** > > Go to a branch of Whole Foods, the American-owned grocery shop, and you will see huge posters advertising Whole Foods, of course, but — more precisely — advertising how virtuous Whole Foods is. A big sign in the window shows a mother with a little... ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/50 "2020-06-13T16:48:13Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Examples include: > Using slogans > Political posters in the yard > Wearing particular pins > Flag rituals > Social media posts > Displaying [XYZ] “in support of” [ABC] > Telling everyone how you went to a march or rally > > Its about telling people (not necessarily with words) that you are aligned with a position you and your group see as virtuous. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. Especially if it is coupled with actual action. And it’s certainly not only something liberals do. A MAGA hat fits even if I personally don’t associate any virtue there. > > An early use of the term: > [Easy virtue | The Spectator](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/easy-virtue) I’m not sure I agree with you. In my view there are many levels of support, with a spectrum that includes: Intangible support Tangible support Displaying support via symbols Advocacy Bombastic advocacy Exclusionary advocacy Bombastic exclusionary advocacy Take breast cancer research. I think 95% of people are intangible supporters of breast cancer research and think it’s a cause worthy of support. However, there’s a smaller percentage of people who donate to breast cancer charities or work to support them. I think someone who wears a pink ribbon, but doesn’t contribute donations or effort to the cause is a virtual signaller. However, if someone chooses to donate monthly and wear the pink ribbon, I don’t think that’s virtual signalling; I just think it’s showing their support. Although if the person starts bragging about going to breast cancer fundraisers all over the country or posting about breast cancer on Facebook 20 times a day, I’m going to question their motives. It’s not that I don’t believe they’re passionate about the cause. It’s that I’m wondering how much of their activity is for the cause, and how much is for their own ego and desire to brag. If they start writing about how breast cancer charities are so much better than other cancer charities, or stating that I’m uncaring if I choose to support other charities instead, then I’m absolutely questioning their motives. And if that (fictitious) person is doing both, then I’m certain their priorities are more about themselves than the cause that they’re supporting. It makes whatever they want to say meaningless, because whatever the virtue of their message, it’s worthless because of my disdain for the messenger. The point where I decide that the content being delivered is about the messenger and not the message is when I decide that someone is a virtue signaller. It doesn’t really matter whether I agree with their cause or not. On a separate note, I also automatically label celebrities who are obvious hypocrites as virtual signallers. Save the planet, go vegan – just ignore the fact that I’m a Formula One driver. Or Save the Earth, use fewer resources – just ignore the flights I take on private jets; after all I bought a Prius. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/51 "2020-06-13T17:15:11Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > You shouldn’t, because the context is essential. Of course intersectionality is important, and standing up for others outside your group is vital, especially marginalized groups. And all that has absolutely nothing to do with what I’m talking about. No single behavior can be a definitive litmus test, but all the things I’ve described, taken in aggregate and in context, slowly builds a picture of a person. I have a ton of progressive friends. I can tell who is actually authentically caring and supporting others, and who is just using the cover of progressiveness to spit shine their own ego or even bully others… If you’re talking about individuals you’ve got considerable personal experience with, it’s very likely true that in at least some cases, maybe most, you can tell the difference. But that’s not how I generally see the term used. > [@Ruken](#): > > Examples include: > Using slogans > Political posters in the yard > Wearing particular pins > Flag rituals > Social media posts > Displaying [XYZ] “in support of” [ABC] > Telling everyone how you went to a march or rally > > Its about telling people (not necessarily with words) that you are aligned with a position you and your group see as virtuous. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. Especially if it is coupled with actual action. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used this way either. That is, I’ve certainly seen it used for any of the specific perfectly reasonable behaviors you list as examples (with the possible exception of “telling everyone”, presuming you don’t mean that as ‘telling some people, and/or making public announcements, in relevant contexts’.)[ETA: I don’t mean I haven’t seen the term used for that, but that some meanings of “telling everyone” are IMO perfectly reasonable and others aren’t.] But I’ve never seen it used as “not necessarily a bad thing.” Whenever I’ve seen it used, it’s always been as a criticism. So in fact it’s often used to criticise people for doing something entirely proper and reasonable; either on the supposed grounds that the people doing it are only doing it in order to get credit for themselves, or occasionally on the supposed grounds that making one’s views publicly known never accomplishes anything at all. Which, especially if enough people do it, isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/52 "2020-06-13T17:50:59Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And I enjoy how you are signalling that you’re _even more_ virtuous that those criticizing virtue signalling, because you’re above such criticism, right? > > [xkcd: Atheists](https://xkcd.com/774/) It’s virtue signaling all the way to the top, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/53 "2020-06-13T17:57:03Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Save the planet, go vegan – just ignore the fact that I’m a Formula One driver. Lewis Hamilton, or any Formula One driver, is hardly the example of someone destroying the planet. He busted his ass working his way up through the ranks to be where he is today, and the constant innovation and experimentation in Formula One designs ultimately yields discoveries that will be beneficial to aerodynamics and engineering in the long term. I see absolutely no hypocrisy in Hamilton being a vegan. Commercial manufacturing, shipping, and fishing industries are taking a much heavier toll on the planet than Formula One which is a pipsqueak in comparison to resources depleted. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/54 "2020-06-13T18:03:05Z")
I don’t think anyone considers someone to be “virtue signaling” if they are genuinely sincere about it. It’s meant to imply people who do not really care but want to look good on social media or elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/55 "2020-06-13T20:41:34Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Lewis Hamilton, or any Formula One driver, is hardly the example of someone destroying the planet. He busted his ass working his way up through the ranks to be where he is today, and the constant innovation and experimentation in Formula One designs ultimately yields discoveries that will be beneficial to aerodynamics and engineering in the long term. I see absolutely no hypocrisy in Hamilton being a vegan. Commercial manufacturing, shipping, and fishing industries are taking a much heavier toll on the planet than Formula One which is a pipsqueak in comparison to resources depleted. Out of curiosity, and at the risk of turning this into a hijack, can you identify a specific technology discovered by a Formula One engineer that’s resulted in an environmental improvement? Formula One engineers do highly specialised research in refining known engineering concepts into specific improvements to their cars. Some of their techniques may eventually migrate back to mainstream automotive engineering, but I’m sceptical they’ve ever resulted in a new concept that could be labelled a mainstream automotive innovation, much less an environmentally beneficial one. Compare that to the environmental costs of flying large teams and mechanic shops around the globe and I expect the environmental benefit/cost ratio, if there even is one, is minuscule. This isn’t a diatribe against Formula One racing. There may well be an argument that the economic and entertainment (a form of personal fulfilment) aspects of the Formula One industry justify the environmental costs. However, that same justification is almost certainly there for the manufacturing, shipping, and fishing industries which provide orders more economic benefits and personal fulfilment. What’s more, Lewis Hamilton isn’t the one providing the supposed engineering benefit. He’s a terrific driver and I appreciate the diversity he brings to the sport. But he contributed nothing to Formula One engineering improvements, much less any supposed environmentally improvements. I’ve nothing against his personal choice to go vegan. But to claim that his diet choice is benefiting the world while his career and non-diet lifestyle choices are incredibly consumptive of resources is absolutely hypocritical and an example of virtual signalling exemplifying that the person delivering the message cares more about his projected personal image than a thoughtful analysis of the message he hoped to deliver. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/56 "2020-06-13T20:53:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I don’t think anyone considers someone to be “virtue signaling” if they are genuinely sincere about it. It’s meant to imply people who do not really care but want to look good on social media or elsewhere. I’m repeating myself, but in my opinion virtual signallers aren’t insincere about their belief in their message (although there are exceptions to this statement). The issue I have is that they care more about the presentation of themselves in delivering the message than the actual message. Whether or not I agree with their message, I find the way they attempt to deliver it counter-productive if it strikes me that they care more about themselves than the concept they’re trying to advocate. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/57 "2020-06-13T22:26:47Z")
While virtue signaling is real and can apply to both left and right-wingers, it’s sort of besides the point when used to attack politicians. They’re constantly espousing positions for personal/political gain and doubtfully out of real conviction, but so what? If they’re doing the right thing (or what we woke people (to use yet another overused buzzword) _know_ is the right thing :)), then motivation can be ignored. > [@Kimstu](#): > > The same tactic operates in a lot of anti-science rhetoric where the accuser can’t refute the science-based argument but can attack the scientist’s motivation. > > _“Studies showing vaccines don’t cause autism? Yeah, all those ‘researchers’ are in the pocket of Big Pharma.”_ That’s not virtue signaling, it’s the [shill gambit](http://www.thecogitoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Shill-Gambit-Low-Res.jpg), which as the link notes (with misspellings) is a form of ad hominem and well-poisoning. Anyone who defends vaccines, genetic modification technology or any form of science/medicine that also benefits an industry can expect to get whacked with that one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/58 "2020-06-14T01:53:20Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > That’s not virtue signaling, it’s the [shill gambit](http://www.thecogitoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Shill-Gambit-Low-Res.jpg) I didn’t say it _was_ “virtue signaling”. What I said was that accusations of virtue signaling and that sort of anti-science rhetoric both use the same rhetorical tactic of _“let’s change the subject from the merits of your actual argument to accusations that you have ulterior motives for insincerely making that argument”_. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/59 "2020-06-14T02:33:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I didn’t say it _was_ “virtue signaling”. > > What I said was that accusations of virtue signaling and that sort of anti-science rhetoric both use the same rhetorical tactic of _“let’s change the subject from the merits of your actual argument to accusations that you have ulterior motives for insincerely making that argument”_. A person accused of virtue signaling supposedly is taking a position just to make him/herself look good. The shill gambit on the other hand is used to dismiss someone’s arguments by accusing them of being _paid_ to make them. If we start mixing up fallacies and sleazy ad hominem tactics, our audience will get confused. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565/60 "2020-06-14T02:42:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > A person accused of virtue signaling supposedly is taking a position just to make him/herself look good. > > The shill gambit on the other hand is used to dismiss someone’s arguments by accusing them of being _paid_ to make them. Right. The underlying common feature is that an accusation of insincerity is being used to distract from the actual merits of the argument. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > If we start mixing up fallacies and sleazy ad hominem tactics, our audience will get confused. 😕 :dubious: ISTM that nobody but you was at all confused by my comparison (not conflation) of those two related but distinct rhetorical tactics. In any case, the thread seems to have been getting along just fine completely ignoring that tangential comparison for nearly fifty posts until you brought it back up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/virtue-signaling/855565.md?page=4)