Wait, one of us is weaseling? And you think it’s me? And you’re serious?
By the way, my position is consistent. I think face tattoos are a sign that a person has poor judgement because society frowns on people with face tattoos, so getting a face tattoo is self-harming. Permanent makeup isn’t self harming because it’s accepted in society. Likewise I wouldn’t look down on a native Maori with a face tattoo because that’s accepted in his culture (though it would of course cause employment problems outside the country), but a non-Maori who gets a Maori face tattoo is a silly jackass.
Again, your reasoning is completely circular. “The decision to get a face tattoo is stupid because it’s stupid.” No, I don’t have one. Heck, I can’t off the top of my head even think of a friend or acqaintance who has one. I just think that it’s nobody else’s business what people choose to do with their own bodies.
Same abortion question to you. Would you refuse to hire a woman who’d had an abortion?
By the way, my position is consistent. I think interracial dating is a sign that a person has poor judgement because society frowns on people with partners who aren’t of the same race, so dating interracially is self-harming.
Seriously, dude, go look at the Wikipedia article for circular reasoning. You could replace the example premise in that article with yours, and it fits perfectly.
Buying a house before you have a career is a terrible decision unless you are otherwise independently wealthy. You get a career and a stable paycheck before you buy a house. If you have a stable career with a secure paycheck getting a tattoo is perfectly justifiable. That’s not the position the OP is in. You can get laid off or a company can go belly up at any point and in that case people get foreclosed on and have their credit ruined, but that doesn’t hurt your ability to get the next job. Tattoo’s don’t get foreclosed on and they might affect your ability to get that next job.
Getting married before you have a career isn’t a particularly wise choice either. There’s a long list of people who have been forced to move for a spouse’s job and were unhappy about it. It’s difficult to know who you want to spend the rest of your life with if you don’t know what that person will be doing with their life. There’s a good reason people always ask “what do you do” on first dates.
Of course, there are lots of other fringe benefits and considerations regarding marriage outside of the job. The career is just one component. There are kids and love and other stuff to consider. The same can’t be said about a tattoo making the comparison particularly stupid.
ETA: I should note that getting an advanced degree, buying a house and even getting married are investments. Investments have risks but they also have benefits. Tattoos aren’t investments, they are all risk with no potential upside aside from aesthetics.
Must avoid Dogma inspired joke…
Choosing to get a major tattoo is like telling God you want to be black when you are born but you know racism exists. Yeah, racism sucks, but then again why create problems for yourself without good reason?
Of course not, and comparing tattoos to abortion is lowering my opinion of you almost as much as the race thing.
Do you think this is a strong argument? Judging people for race is a bad thing and should be fought. Judging people because of their stupid tattoos isn’t a bad thing, and in fact, more stupid people should be encouraged to get them (so they can be spotted more quickly, like this guy).
How is this a point? Yes, it’s a vicious circle, that because society looks down on people with face tattoos, people who are stupid enough to get face tattoos get treated badly. That sucks, but pointing it out isn’t any sort of coherent argument.
Do you think it’s a circular argument if I tell you that if you walk into crips territory wearing bloods colors you will get shot? Do you think that calling it a circular argument will mean you won’t get shot?
People who get face tattoos are flouting conventions in a non-concealable way, and that means they get treated like the sort of people who have deliberately set themselves apart from society. More than that, they get treated like the sort of people who have set themselves apart from society in a particularly stupid, moronic, and non-reversible way. That’s not a circular argument, that’s fucking reality.
Yes. You’re weaseling. “Permanent makeup is not a facial tattoo” is a position only a weasel can take–ink is going into your face via a needle. “Citation offenses that do not involve damage or theft to people or property are not properly criminal offenses” is a reasonable position to take when the context is evaluating potential hires.
Look, it’s this simple. A well-executed, tasteful facial tattoo says “I have a non-traditional aesthetic sense”, not “I have poor judgement and hearts teh meth.” There is a difference between, say, Kat Von D and some random guy with prison tattoos that say FUCK WHITEY or whatever, and not seeing that difference just indicates YOUR lack of judgement.
I have no tattoos, I never will due to my crippling fear of needles. I just think making hiring decisions based on aesthetic judgements is dumb as hell. Not thinking there’s a difference between
This guy has a job, seeing how fluffy he is I doubt he is on meth, and he looks like he might have a fun sense of humor, and I would let my daughter over the age of 18 date him. I would hire him to be a night guard, or work in my call center. He might do a little weed, probably drinks beer and perhaps smokes cigarettes.
By the way, I got my tattoo when I was working at State Farm, they never had one issue with it, and I was hired into my next job by a guy who had more tattoos than I did.
For behaviors that do not harm others, people who think “accepted in society” is a relevant criterion are stupid as hell.
Your position is functionally equivalent to saying “interracial marriage is self-harming , because it isn’t accepted in society. People who marry outside of their race are showing poor judgement.” in 1930. Time sure showed past you who was boss, and I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that time will show you equally wrong when it comes to making unnuanced aesthetic judgements and pretending they are smart hiring decisions.
Risking employment and social opportunties for personal aesthetics also isnt the brightest thing either (which is why I keep MY love for Spongebob Squarepants on the down low…).
You’re confused; go re-read my post until you grasp my point.
Yeah, snicker, that’s not a weasel position at all.
I see the difference: a tasteful tattoo and a kill whitey tattoo are both fucking stupid, but one will hurt your life more than the other.
And let me blow your mind here: I don’t have a problem with Kat Von D’s tattoo, because she’s a tattoo artist, so it won’t hurt her. I don’t have a problem with Mike Tyson’s tattoo, because he has enough money that he doesn’t have to care. But the average person would have to be fucking stupid to get a face tattoo, and I would sure the fuck consider that when making a hiring decision.
So your solution to racism is that everyone should be white, not that racists should stop being racist. Got it.
Maybe if women stop wearing skirts and going out at night, we can finally get rid of rape, too!
C’mon, I’ll make it *really easy *for you! The sex that resulted in conception was 100% consensual and the women simply chose not to use any kind of contraception. Given that preventative methods such as oral contraceptives, IUDs, or condoms are both cheaper and healthier, not to mention being *much *more socially acceptable, don’t you think the woman in this scenario has demonstrated very poor judgment?
Ah, but we’re not judging people for their race. We’re judging them for the race they choose to date. So, on one hand, we have someone making a snap judgement based on a superficial thing that has no bearing on the person’s ability to perform a job. And, on the other hand, we have someone making a snap judgement based on a superficial thing that has no bearing on the person’s ability to perform a job.
In both cases, the justification is that there are some people in society who don’t approve of that person’s personal choice. So what, in your mind, distinguishes these two scenarios, other than “because I say so”? You haven’t given any explanation so far that is any more than that.
It’s a perfectly coherent argument–it’s your original reasoning that isn’t coherent. It’s entirely illogical and based on personal preference. You haven’t been able to give a single objective reason why visible tattoos are bad. Plug anything similarly irrelevant but potentially disapproved of by society into that gap, and suddenly you get really uncomfortable because you’re forced to look at the kind of ideological company you’re keeping. Not so fun to be chumming around with racists, is it.
Another terrible analogy. Again, there’s a *concrete reason *that happens: because you are demonstrating your affiliation with a rival gang. People with tattoos are not a rival gang from people without tattoos. Though the fact that you seem to think they are is rather telling.
People who engage in same-sex relationships are flouting conventions in a non-concealable way, and that means they get treated like the sort of people who have deliberately set themselves apart from society. More than that, they get treated like the sort of people who have set themselves apart from society in a particularly stupid, moronic, and non-reversible way. That’s not a circular argument, that’s fucking reality.
ETA:
It’s not, when your point about people with facial tattoos is that they’re all nasty and scary and dumb. If you were trying to prove that by saying they’ve committed the same tiny, minor crimes as half the board, then I’m not sure whose stupidity is being proven. You might as well be saying, “I won’t hire people with facial tattoos because I’m sure they often drive about five miles over the speed limit and sometimes fail to come to a complete stop at a stop sign.”
And I, in turn, would NOT hire you, since you have shown a remarkable ability to make decisions on criteria that are not relevant. The only difference is, I’d probably have to hire you and then fire you in a month, except that based on your performance here it’d probably come out in the interview.
Sure, why not? I think I saw a Dr Suess documentary on that once.
Yes, you got me, thinking face tattoos are stupid is like lynching black people. How could I have been so stupid. Your clever argument beat me. I surrender. Wonder if this guy wants a job, now that my racist eyes have been opened.
BRB, telling every friend who looks like they have ancestors who didn’t come from western Europe that they’re the problem.
ETA:
I love that **Evil Economist **keeps pulling up awesome strawman examples of the worst possible facial tattoos.
Yeah, but hot man on man sex is worth something significant to both men. And, IIRC, gay men being gay really aint a choice.
A tattoo is a CHOICE. And, again, what exactly are the fantastic benifits of having a tattoo 24/7 for life? To me the benifits seem to mostly be to impress other shallow people that think having a tattoo is something cool and an excuse to rail against those evil people who think tattoos are silly.
I have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Something about hating tattoos is like killing mixed-race babies? I’m sure it’s a good argument, plus I do like killing mixed-race babies, so I concede.
I love racists, it’s the babies I hate, or something.
Didn’t I date you once? I remember staring at a wall wondering when it would stop. Was that you?
Yes, telling. I’m a terrible racist baby-killing gang-banger. Should get that tattooed on my face, that’ll help me get a job next time you’re hiring.
Not only do I hate the blacks, and the aborted babies, I also hate the gays. Got it.
Throw up a few more walls of text, and people with face tattoos will get jobs, no problem. Get on it!
Yeah, I’m passing by all those awesome facial tattoos. By the way, your aesthetic judgement of those people’s tattoos means you’re worse than a mixed-race-baby-killing gay person.
Yes, you would be in a position to hire me. And then fire me. Because I thought face tattoos were stupid. Karmic-justice guarantees that this person will hand me my pink slip.
