# Vito Corleone in Godfather II : Some thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 17, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073 "2008-11-17T02:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/21 "2008-11-19T22:06:02Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I wish Puzo has written more about the Corleone outfit after 1932 (end of Prohibition)-maybe a tie-in with an up-and-coming guy named joe kennedy? In the Mark Winegardner GODFATHER novels (which were authorized by the Puzo estate, though few real fans consider them canon [I don’t]), there’s a character named Mickey Shea, a respectable Boston Irish Catholic multimillionaire with a shady past everyone knows about but none can prove and who had business dealings with Don Corleone; Shea’s son Jimmy becomes the first Irish Catholic president ca. 1960 and appoints his younger brother as Atty. General and “organized crime czar”. It made me wonder, why not just say Joe/John/Bobby Kennedy? Admittedly there were a lot of Irish Catholics with ruthless dads being elected president and appointing their brothers as AG around that time, but some of the particulars point ot the Kennedy family especially. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/22 "2008-11-19T22:06:13Z")
The earliest I recall hearing these rumors was during the Clinton administration and it _always_ came from somebody who had a hard-on for Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/23 "2008-11-19T22:09:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The earliest I recall hearing these rumors was during the Clinton administration and it _always_ came from somebody who had a hard-on for Democrats. I know I heard them earlier and it would not surprise me if Nixon started them in 1960 to try and discredit JFK during the election. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/24 "2008-11-19T22:33:48Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The “Joe Kennedy was a bootlegger” rumor seems to have sprung up largely in recent years; and it seems to be propogated mainly by people who want to tarnish JFK’s reputation. JFK was getting saddled with all that in the 1950s. Hardly recent years. Generally considered true (see JPK’s Wikipedia article). Probably came up in the 1946 congressional race but that was too local to make national news. What his father did decades earlier doesn’t tarnish JFK’s reputation much. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/25 "2008-11-19T23:10:45Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Generally considered true (see JPK’s Wikipedia article). First of all, that’s not what Wikipedia says. It says that this was “reputed” and such allegations were never proven. Second, it doesn’t offer any actual evidence for any such claim. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/26 "2008-11-19T23:21:41Z")
Fortunately, there’s a generally reliable newspaper columnist who comments on the bootlegging rumors: > **[What is the true source of the Kennedy family’s wealth?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341885/what-is-the-true-source-of-the-kennedy-family-s-wealth)** > [@](#): > > Kennedy may also have traded in illegal booze, although the evidence is circumstantial. His father had been in the liquor business before Prohibition, and Joe himself got into it (publicly, that is) immediately after repeal. Some believe the family business simply went underground during the dry years. He may have been strictly a nickle-and-dimer; Harvard classmates say he supplied the illicit booze for alumni events. > > But there might have been more to it than that. In 1973 mob boss Frank Costello said he and Kennedy had been bootlegging partners. Other underworld figures have also claimed Joe was in pretty deep. At least one writer (Davis, 1984) thinks bootlegging enabled Joe to earn his initial financial stake, but that’s hard to believe; he had plenty of chances to make money more or less legally. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/27 "2008-11-19T23:26:09Z")
I think it makes perfect sense if you know the historic context of the Mafia, which is not touched on at all in the movies (I haven’t read the books). The Mafia was a kind of privatized police force, or local government. Sicily’s government was incapable–or unwilling–to protect its citizens in the way that we expect a government to do, so the Mafia filled the vacuum in a kind of Political Darwinism, to coin a phrase: office was achieved, and held, by force, not by democracy, and the “law” was the unwritten law of the Mafia. (Doesn’t the word mean something like “honor” or “duty” or something?) Your local Mafia Godfather was the ipso facto mayor, police chief–and, this being a privately financed operation–moneylender. I spose that, over time, the fact the mafia was, after, separate from legitimate government and police, its purview evolved naturally to be the areas outside of their control–i.e., outside of the law. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/28 "2008-11-19T23:48:31Z")
Sorry, obligatory [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia): > [@](#): > > Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors, given that the state appeared to offer no protection for the poor and weak. As late as the 1950s, the funeral epitaph of the legendary boss of Villalba, Calogero Vizzini, stated that “his ‘mafia’ was not criminal, but stood for respect of the law, defense of all rights, greatness of character. It was love.” Here, “mafia” means something like pride, honour, or even social responsibility: an attitude, not an organization. Likewise, in 1925, the former Italian Prime Minister Vittorio Emanuele Orlando stated in the Italian senate that he was proud of being mafioso, because that word meant honourable, noble, generous.[5][6] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/29 "2008-11-20T05:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Doesn’t the word mean something like “honor” or “duty” or something? The origin of the words mafia and mafiosi is disputed but it probably was derived from the Arabic word “mu afyiah” which means to swagger or to strut. (Sicily was ruled by Arabs at one point.) This led to the Sicilian “mafiusi” which translates as the beautiful people. Basically the early mafiosi were regarded as the local tough guys who paraded around town showing off their expensive clothes. Another possible origin for the word is that early mafiosi hid out in a Sicilian cave system known as the mafie. Other discredited theories are that Mafia is an acronym for Morte Alla Francia, Italia Anela (“Death to the French, Italy Cries” - this was from when France ruled Italy) or that it’s an abbreviation of _ **m** _i_ **a** _ _ **f** _amil_ **ia** _ (my family). ---
**Author:** ![Brunhilda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cdc98d/32.png) [@Brunhilda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brunhilda)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/30 "2008-11-20T06:04:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The origin of the words mafia and mafiosi is disputed but it probably was derived from the Arabic word “mu afyiah” which means to swagger or to strut. (Sicily was ruled by Arabs at one point.) This led to the Sicilian “mafiusi” which translates as the beautiful people. Basically the early mafiosi were regarded as the local tough guys who paraded around town showing off their expensive clothes. Another possible origin for the word is that early mafiosi hid out in a Sicilian cave system known as the mafie. Other discredited theories are that Mafia is an acronym for Morte Alla Francia, Italia Anela (“Death to the French, Italy Cries” - this was from when France ruled Italy) or that it’s an abbreviation of _ **m** _i_ **a** _ _ **f** _amil_ **ia** _ (my family). It is very hard to track down these etymologies, I’m quite impressed. The way that I see the whole subplot with the Luca Brazi loyalty issue was that Luca Brazi is a necessary evil for Don Corleone; he requires someone who truly has no remorse, but then when you deal with someone like that the issue becomes “How do you keep that person loyal to you, and within the bounds of my own ethics?” In the case of Don Corleone, you get the feeling that the only people he can trust are those who he either has as family, or those who are so deeply in debt to him that betrayal would mean complete destruction. The best example of this is the hapless Amerigo Bonaserra, who has tried so hard to live a life that meant full acculturation into a world that doesn’t do right by him. He has handled the subversion of family structure (in the sense that he gave his daughter a great deal more freedom than he would have been inclined, according to the book), he handled the prejudices against him, and still got screwed in the end. His turning to the Don is a betrayal of everything that he has believed in, and exposing himself to that has compromised his set of ethics irrevocably. It is only because of this that the Don is able to get Sonny cleaned up without alerting the cops to his violent death. (according to the book) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/31 "2008-11-20T13:15:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Fortunately, there’s a generally reliable newspaper columnist who comments on the bootlegging rumors: > > [What is the true source of the Kennedy family’s wealth? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/716/what-is-the-true-source-of-the-kennedy-familys-wealth) The fact is, Joe Kennedy was deeply in bed with the Mob-the theatres (projectionists union) was owned by the Chicago mob, and Kennedy had to play ball with them (when he was in the movie business). Kennedy used his knowledge (about the coming end of prohibition) to secure lucrative oimporting contracts for scotch and canadian whiskey. so, despite his cherished veneer of respectability, Kennedy was a mobster in everything but name. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/32 "2008-11-20T15:20:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The fact is, Joe Kennedy was deeply in bed with the Mob-the theatres (projectionists union) was owned by the Chicago mob, and Kennedy had to play ball with them (when he was in the movie business). And so did the entire movie industry, the construction industry, the auto industry, the shipping industry, and several other lines of business. Do you call everyone with any association with such businesses mobsters in all but name? > [@](#): > > Kennedy used his knowledge (about the coming end of prohibition) to secure lucrative oimporting contracts for scotch and canadian whiskey. This statement suggests absolutely nothing illegal or unethical. Everyone knew prohibition was going to end. > [@](#): > > so, despite his cherished veneer of respectability, Kennedy was a mobster in everything but name. Your statements don’t support this conclusion. A lot of people have had to “play ball” with organized crime. We don’t consider them all mobsters “in everything but name.” ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/33 "2008-11-20T15:56:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > And so did the entire movie industry, the construction industry, the auto industry, the shipping industry, and several other lines of business. Do you call everyone with any association with such businesses mobsters in all but name? > So, it is ethical to deal with known criminal?s? > > This statement suggests absolutely nothing illegal or unethical. Everyone knew prohibition was going to end. > Kennedy was a government employee (Head of the SEC): is it ethical tu use inside knowledge for personal gain? > Your statements don’t support this conclusion. A lot of people have had to “play ball” with organized crime. We don’t consider them all mobsters “in everything but name.” So consorting with known organized crime figures is OK? Are we known by the company we keep? How would you fell if your local police chief attended Los Vegas paries with convicted felons? I guess that is OK? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/34 "2008-11-20T16:45:38Z")
It’s not ok. It’s certainly corrupt, but it’s a really big leap from, “Joe Kennedy did a bunch of shady and unethical things” to “Joe Kennedy was a mobster in everything but name”. My great-grandfather’s diner sold beer and had penny slots in a back room during Prohibition, and he paid off the beat cops to look the other way. It was probably a bad thing to do, but it didn’t make my great-grandfather Al Capone. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/35 "2008-11-20T16:51:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So consorting with known organized crime figures is OK? “not OK” =/= “a mobster in all but name” And now you’ve introduced a new allegation, “consorting.” I thought you said he had to deal with mob controlled unions in order to run his theater chain. I invite you to lay out precisely and comprehensively your allegations regarding Joseph Kennedy and organized crime. That’ll make it a lot easier to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/36 "2008-11-20T18:57:19Z")
In the Winegardner books, Mickey Shea/Joe Kennedy approaches tangential friend Johnny Fontanne/Frank Sinatra for Corleone’s help in getting labor unions to endorse and deliver votes for his son. (There isn’t a lot of correlation between Michael Corleone and Sam Giancana, who is the usual person in this oft told tale that probably has at least some validity.) There has been talk by Coppola (and Puzo when he was alive) about a prequel/sequel. It would take place between the Robert Deniro scenes of GF2 and the beginning of Godfather. Among other things it would include Hagen’s introductin into the family, Sonny becoming a made man, Michael’s turning away and Vito’s first major assassination attempt (Brando based the voice on a man who’d had a major throat injury.) At one time Leonardo DiCaprio was attached, though I don’t know as which character. There’s also been talk (officially, this being from Coppola) of a sequel set in modern day or perhaps just a few years ago (the 1990s perhaps) revolving around Vincent Mancini Corleone and the modern family. This would show the complete descent of the family from anything remotely noble that Vito attempted into street crime and extortion. Since Michael’s death was not given a sure date, Pacino could have a cameo as the very old retired Michael being visited in Sicily. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/37 "2008-11-25T19:45:55Z")
Just now checking subscribed thread ! Good stuff up there, and all valid. The Luca Brazzi info is chilling- and fits in very well. Agreed, he’d lost his family to violence so why wouldn’t he be inclined to step into a violent life. Perhaps it’s the way it was played. A quiet family man who starts with stealing a rug… That’s how Brando worked it, too. A quiet family man who gave advice and kept his friends close and his enemies closer. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/38 "2008-11-28T16:45:58Z")
When the propserous American (Vito Corleone) shows up in Sicily, he parties with the family. Word get around fast (in a Sicilian village), so, presumably Don Ciccio hears of the mysterious american, who bears the name of the village (Corleone). Why isn’t tye Mafia chief suspicious? So, Vito meets with the old crook, and shoves a knife into him-after which a gun battle breaks out-and Vito makes his escape. Was he aided by his local friends? i mean, what was he conversation in the local police station? something like: “Chief, Don Ciccio has been killed!” “Patrolman Vincenzo, write up the report…and round up the usual suspects” So, were the local cops glad that somebody whacked Don Ciccio?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073/39 "2008-11-28T17:41:47Z")
Why would the cops get involved in an internal mafia matter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vito-corleone-in-godfather-ii-some-thoughts/473073.md?page=1)