# ¡Viva España! Spain looking to indict Bushies ¡Olé! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440 "2009-03-31T15:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/201 "2009-05-17T17:34:13Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 1. You don’t want to admit I’m beating you, but whatever gets you through the night. You might want to take your Palantír for servicing, vis à vis you mind-reading, you’re waaaay off. WTH? You think this is a game and someone is keeping score? That’s almost as lunatic as the reasoning you’ve put forth vis-a-vis “poor people willing to withstand torture to get into the US.” See, I am actually surrounded by poor people, living as I do in a Third World Nation. And I speak to them everyday. Thus I _am_ speaking from experience when I tell you that not one of them – excepting the clearly insane – would take you so-called “offer.” On the contrary, you’d be surprised if you actually went out and took a poll, at just how well informed most of these people are regarding the abuses committed by the United States and how opposed to them they actually are. Go on, do it yourself, no need to believe me. Poor does _not_ equal ignorant by any stretch of the imagination, so please, stop trying to do their thinking for them. It’s as insulting as your proposal. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/202 "2009-05-18T04:56:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I’d also add, that despite my strong support for Obama, I am at a loss to explain his recent behavior. After all, he was the one who (rightly IMHO) set the gears in motion by releasing the original documents. That’s one Genie that’s not going back in the bottle no matter how hard he tries to hide it, which, incidentally, is grotesquely reminiscent of the actions of the prior Administration. I think that’s obvious, why doesn’t he? THe more I think about it the more I think Obama wants to appear to not be the driving force behind this but also is not against it but rather has realised this has taken a life of its own and is unstoppable and he can move a tad slow and pretend he is being forced to act by the course things are taking. That way he can let Congress take the initiative and he can reamain a bit above things and not make more enemies over this than strictly necessary. In that sense I think it is essential that the pressure continue. If in the end justice is done I will not blame Obama for not acting more speedily even though I disagree with him not releasing the photos. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/203 "2009-05-18T05:55:22Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I don’t think that’s a realistic scenario nor one being contemplated by Spanish authorities in the least. Remember that this is an independent investigation, not one ordered by the Government. What is happening is rather pragmatic despite its inherent idealism and that is simply Garzon and a couple of other judges, using the legal system in as much as they can to keep the issue on the front burner. Note that they are also being helped by a growing number of American legal experts (ACLU & others) who are also using said system. In that sense I think Spain is, for the time being, more of a staging ground for what many hope will ultimately be resolved by the rules of law in the US – as you point out yourself. > > I’d also add, that despite my strong support for Obama, I am at a loss to explain his recent behavior. After all, he was the one who (rightly IMHO) set the gears in motion by releasing the original documents. That’s one Genie that’s not going back in the bottle no matter how hard he tries to hide it, which, incidentally, is grotesquely reminiscent of the actions of the prior Administration. I think that’s obvious, why doesn’t he? As far as I know, it’s just a gesture, they will never get to arrest anyone (if they can even make the charges stick). It’s symbolic. I don’t know why Obama is (apparently) backing away now, this genie should NOT go back in the bottle. Even if no one ever answers for it, we need to make sure it can’t happen again. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/204 "2011-04-17T22:58:38Z")
Predictably, Spain officially [drops](http://uruknet.com/?p=m76917&hd=&size=1&l=e) case against Bushies. No bueno. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/205 "2011-04-17T23:01:13Z")
The foolish attempt by the Spanish to revive the Inquisition has stopped, thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/206 "2011-04-17T23:35:06Z")
Excellent news. The capture of political criminals by international networks it is the best that had happened to mankind since Rock and Roll. Let’s hope these guys take a hollyday in Europe to see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/207 "2011-04-17T23:38:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The foolish attempt by the Spanish to revive the Inquisition has stopped, thankfully. Yeah, it’s terrible that those evil Spaniards were trying to bring war criminals to justice! Fascism rules! Yay!!! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/208 "2011-04-17T23:49:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yeah, it’s terrible that those evil Spaniards were trying to bring war criminals to justice! Fascism rules! Yay!!! What utter strawmanning, Waterboarding it should be noted has been used in the past and I think while it is torture, it is extreme to denounce everyone who merely led it to being used. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/209 "2011-04-18T00:17:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What utter strawmanning, Waterboarding it should be noted has been used in the past and I think while it is torture, it is extreme to denounce everyone who merely led it to being used. How do you feel about the Japanese war criminals tried for water-boarding Americans? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/210 "2011-04-18T00:46:49Z")
Well, it’s a good thing this zombie was revived as I was on the edge of my seat, wondering if the Spanish would in fact follow through and bring Bush and his evil henchmen to justice! I really thought there was a chance there… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/211 "2011-04-18T00:49:32Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The foolish attempt by the Spanish to revive the Inquisition has stopped, thankfully. You mean Guantanamo wasnt already the revival of the Inquisition? What’s a revival of a revival? A zombie? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/212 "2011-04-18T01:39:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, it’s a good thing this zombie was revived as I was on the edge of my seat, wondering if the Spanish would in fact follow through and bring Bush and his evil henchmen to justice! I really thought there was a chance there… Of course there wasn’t. If the last few decades show anything it’s that you can be a criminal and a monster and get away with it without punishment, if you are a Republican President. The Democrats will even cover for you, despite the fact that the Republicans would _never_ return the favor. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/213 "2011-04-18T01:50:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course there wasn’t. If the last few decades show anything it’s that you can be a criminal and a monster and get away with it without punishment, if you are a Republican President. The Democrats will even cover for you, despite the fact that the Republicans would _never_ return the favor. Can you show some example of a Democrat Prez getting succesfully sued? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/214 "2011-04-18T01:54:58Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What utter strawmanning, Waterboarding it should be noted has been used in the past and I think while it is torture, it is extreme to denounce everyone who merely led it to being used. Well declaring war under false pretenses, as Bush and Cheney did in Iraq, might also be considered a WEEEE bit of a war crime and a human rights violation. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/215 "2011-04-18T02:03:55Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Can you show some example of a Democrat Prez getting succesfully sued? [Clinton v. Jones](http://supreme.justia.com/us/520/681/case.html)😉 Though this might not be quite what you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/216 "2011-04-18T02:12:21Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Can you show some example of a Democrat Prez getting succesfully sued? The Republicans went after Clinton relentlessly, and even got him disbarred. As opposed to the Democrats, who never went after Bush and who worked to help cover up the torture and other crimes of the Bush Administration. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/217 "2011-04-18T02:15:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Republicans went after Clinton relentlessly, and even got him disbarred. As opposed to the Democrats, who never went after Bush and who worked to help cover up the torture and other crimes of the Bush Administration. Clinton didnt get impeached, Nixon would have if he hadnt resigned. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/218 "2011-04-18T02:28:28Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Clinton didnt get impeached, Nixon would have if he hadnt resigned. Because Clinton didn’t have anything they could twist into an impeachable offense; they certainly tried hard enough and hurt plenty of people in the process. As opposed to, say, lying to Congress to get the country into a war, and engaging in torture. And Nixon was (of course!) pardoned. Just as Obama has worked to ensure that Bush’s torture campaign is never seriously investigated. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/219 "2011-04-18T02:34:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well declaring war under false pretenses, as Bush and Cheney did in Iraq, might also be considered a WEEEE bit of a war crime and a human rights violation. Not really, no. War crimes are about violations of international laws of war and generally just legislate what’s not supposed to be happening when countries are already at war, things like “don’t shoot medics” or “mustard gas is not nice”. Waterboarding might be lumped in there, but bullshitting the country into supporting the invasion decidedly isn’t. I’m also pretty sure the universal declaration of the rights of man does not include the right not to be lied to and made a fool of by your politicos, so no go on the human rights violation. What you’re looking for is “Crime against peace”, which bans the planning, implementation and waging of wars of aggression. But I’m sure a lawyer would argue that Iraq technically wasn’t a war of aggression, since the purpose ostensibly wasn’t to seize the land and subjugate the people. Finally, I don’t believe anyone has ever been charged (never mind convicted) with a crime against peace anyway - except for the Nazis of course, since that piece of law was pretty much written in order to charge them with it before the ink could dry :). ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/220 "2011-04-18T02:37:33Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Clinton didnt get impeached, … [nitpick]Clinton was impeached; he was not convicted.[/nitpick] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=12)