# ¡Viva España! Spain looking to indict Bushies ¡Olé! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440 "2009-03-31T15:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/21 "2009-03-31T21:52:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Think twice before you endorse the concept of foreign governments trying Americans for crimes that were not committed on their soil. You’d rather they face a court in Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/22 "2009-03-31T21:57:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The problem with that argument is that NOT prosecuting such people has created the even more dangerous precedent that the President and his allies are above the law, and can do anything. Except, of course, lie about sex in a frivolous lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/23 "2009-03-31T21:58:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, I’m saying people should put their money where their mouth is. These silly little power plays are good for nothing but PR. If the Spanish really had the courage of their convictions they’d expel the U.S. ambassador and start seizing American assets. Right now, all I see is hot air. Their indictment names 6 individuals, not the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Bender44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Bender44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bender44)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/24 "2009-03-31T22:02:14Z")
> [@Ataraxy](#): > > In the article, they mention that the US has sentenced Chuckie Taylor, son of the Liberian dictator, for torture on Liberian soil. > > Also, the Spanish claim jurisdiction because several of the tortured at Gitmo were Spaniards. Slight difference there was that Chuckie Taylor was a US citizen and was on US soil when he was arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/25 "2009-03-31T22:03:13Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Their indictment names 6 individuals, not the US government. Individuals acting on behalf of the U.S. government. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/26 "2009-03-31T22:04:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, I’m saying people should put their money where their mouth is. These silly little power plays are good for nothing but PR. If the Spanish really had the courage of their convictions they’d expel the U.S. ambassador and start seizing American assets. Right now, all I see is hot air. No they are going through the process that a non-reactionary western democracy should use. If these people are eventually convicted in a court of law Spain will request extradition. The States will say “NO!” and then it will just be a case of waiting for these people to enter Europe. If they never do they’ll never serve any time but they’ll have it hanging over them. I see no point in Spain burning the house around them for a point of principle. Your kind of full on proposal is the kind of thinking(on all sides) that has fucked your part of world and my Island for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/27 "2009-03-31T22:15:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, I’m saying people should put their money where their mouth is. These silly little power plays are good for nothing but PR. If the Spanish really had the courage of their convictions they’d expel the U.S. ambassador and start seizing American assets. Right now, all I see is hot air. Pinochet used to say the same. The persons indicted, at very least, won’t be able to travel outside the US ever again. It’s not exactly rotting in jail but it’s a confort ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/28 "2009-03-31T22:15:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Individuals acting on behalf of the U.S. government. Is that how the law works in Spain? Are civil servants who break the law in the course of their duties answerable or is it a State issue? I certainly don’t know but the way this story is told it seems the individuals are responsible under the law. A Spanish judge will make the call. Spain isn’t exactly a banana republic so the decision whatever way it falls will be based on a legal decision and not just a wholly political one, I acknowledge that political pressure will be involved on some level. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/29 "2009-03-31T22:18:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Individuals acting on behalf of the U.S. government. A government which is no longer in power. So what would be the point of your proposed course of action, again? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/30 "2009-03-31T22:31:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A government which is no longer in power. So what would be the point of your proposed course of action, again? It’s the same government, just the people running it have changed. Have all pending legal claims against GM been closed now that they’ve changed the CEO? These indictments have nothing to do with the law or with the six individuals in question and everything to do with politics. It’s nothing more than a politcal attack on U.S. policy and the U.S. as a whole using the Spanish courts as a proxy. Now, you may see this sort of attack as perfectly valid, and maybe U.S. policy needs to be criticized. But not this way. This isn’t what courts are for. Doing it in this manner makes a mockery of the court and the criminal justice system as a whole - which is something the Spanish people should find worrisome. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/31 "2009-03-31T22:56:43Z")
> [@Ataraxy](#): > > Bull. Spain is using international law, namely the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Torture Conventions, as a basis for this and the US is a signatory of both. Denmark has nothing to do with Islamic law. Apples and Oranges. So what? You don’t that think there are prosecutors and judges around the world, who thinks that for instance cartoons is prohibited by International Law and a crime against humanity? And why do you think they should play by your rules? If you set the precedence, perhaps some nutcases somewhere would think it a stellar idea to broaden the things that can be send international indictments of. > [@sailor](#): > > WTF? Europe is now some “shitty little country without democratic representation”? Yeah. That too. Some places more than other. And of course the missing democratic representation is American. Last I heard US citizens don’t get to vote in Spanish elections. But of course it’d be great if we could get to indict all kinds of people we dislike for various reasons from all around the globe and nobody doing the same to us. Unfortunately the world doesn’t work that way anymore. Perhaps after the revolution.. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/32 "2009-03-31T22:59:38Z")
[Kissinger: Wanted for questioning](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/04/29/1019441344329.html) There is precedence. I have read that several countries would like a shot at Kissinger. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/33 "2009-03-31T23:15:20Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Yeah. That too. Some places more than other. And of course the missing democratic representation is American. Last I heard US citizens don’t get to vote in Spanish elections. But of course it’d be great if we could get to indict all kinds of people we dislike for various reasons from all around the globe and nobody doing the same to us. Unfortunately the world doesn’t work that way anymore. Perhaps after the revolution.. What exactly did these people do **on American soil** that got them put in GITMO and allegedly be totured? At least the Spanish are using agreed Laws as a basis for the case and putting it in open court. They’re not calling the GC “quaint” and ignoring it. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/34 "2009-03-31T23:58:26Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > This isn’t what courts are for. Doing it in this manner makes a mockery of the court and the criminal justice system as a whole - which is something the Spanish people should find worrisome. Why is it a mockery? If it is a crime against humanity then the jurisdiction is international. If you don´t agree then, explain the nuremberg trials. Criminals are supposed to face justice and, without knowing all the details, I have to say that there is a strong case against Bush and the others. People were illegaly seized, tortured and imprisioned without a trial. Many died. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/35 "2009-04-01T00:17:11Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > WTF? Europe is now some “shitty little country without democratic representation”? Rune is Danish, if you weren’t aware of that. (Not sure what difference that makes, but just in case you thought that was a chauvinistic American remark…) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/36 "2009-04-01T00:42:48Z")
I for one consider letting them get away with it the worse precedent. The world can survive intra-national strife. A hegemon with unrestrained appetites for the rest of the world is a great pain to all, & will, best case, eventually face the wrath of all others. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/37 "2009-04-01T00:43:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s the same government, just the people running it have changed. The people who run it are the government. Take all the people out of it, and there’s nothing left. > [@](#): > > Have all pending legal claims against GM been closed now that they’ve changed the CEO? No, but GM is legally considered a person unto itself for the purposes of legal liability, debts, etc. I do not believe that there are any such laws that pertain to governments. But I’m not a lawyer, so I may be mistaken on that count. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/38 "2009-04-01T01:21:18Z")
There aren’t enough rolley eyes in the world. Sheesh guys…this is pretty obviously just (another) political play. While I’m sure it strikes a cord with the ‘Bush and his entire administration are all war criminals’ gang, this is nothing more than a ploy for public attention. Ah well…enjoy the mutual masturbation… -XT p.s. When do the trials in THIS country start btw? I mean, the Dems control the House and the Senate and a Dem is in the White House…so, when should I stop holding my breath for Obama et al to start rolling out the indictments? When are the trials going to start? After all, where there is smoke there is fire, ehe? And if even the Spanish can see it, surely it’s obvious to our new (well, since 2006 in the case of the House and Senate) fearless leaders…no? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/39 "2009-04-01T02:24:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sheesh guys…this is pretty obviously just (another) political play. While I’m sure it strikes a cord with the ‘Bush and his entire administration are all war criminals’ gang, this is nothing more than a ploy for public attention. I notice you don’t say that it’s wrong, just political. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/40 "2009-04-01T04:20:25Z")
If America were doing the same thing the same people who criticize this would be supporting it. It is not what is done but who does it. America claims the right to kidnap people in other countries and send them to Guantanamo to be tortured. With no trial. And that is good because it is America doing it. But if another country should claim the right to try an American then that is bad. Because other countries are shitholes and only America has the Good Lord on its side. Oh and Israel too. That’s it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=3)