# ¡Viva España! Spain looking to indict Bushies ¡Olé! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440 "2009-03-31T15:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/141 "2009-04-10T15:30:28Z")
Relevant article: > [@](#): > > [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/06/EDSG16SH3N.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/06/EDSG16SH3N.DTL) > > If arrest warrants are issued, Spain and any of the other 24 countries that are parties to European extradition conventions could arrest these six men when they travel abroad. > > Does Spain have the authority to prosecute Americans for crimes that didn’t take place on Spanish soil? > > The answer is yes. It’s called “universal jurisdiction.” Universal jurisdiction is a well-established theory that countries, including the United States, have used for many years to investigate and prosecute foreign nationals for crimes that shock the conscience of the global community. It provides a critical legal tool to hold accountable those who commit crimes against the law of nations, including war crimes and crimes against humanity. Without universal jurisdiction, many of the most notorious criminals would go free. Countries that have used this as a basis to prosecute the most serious of crimes should be commended for their courage. They help to create a just world in which we all seek to live. > … > Israel used universal jurisdiction to prosecute, convict and execute Adolph Eichmann for his crimes during the Holocaust, even they had no direct relationship with Israel. > … > When the United States ratified the Convention Against Torture, it promised to extradite or prosecute those who commit, or are complicit in, the commission of torture. At least I think it makes a point if these people are indicted in Europe and cannot travel there. And the American government will look bad by protecting them. So maybe the solution will be a sham investigation where they are all cleared of any wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/142 "2009-04-10T18:40:51Z")
I’ve been busy with school and forgot about this thread. If you’re still up for it. > [@mswas](#): > > Well I remember hearing about it but I cannot find a proper cite. Regardless with or without shelling it was bad. Hmm. What exactly was bad? I’m not saying bad stuff didn’t happen in the Civil war. I’d just like some clarity. > [@](#): > > argumentum ad populum Not really. Did I say their positive actions **justified** their negatives? I merely pointed out why comparing the two wasn’t a good comparison. Put differently say a man murders someone in a gang war but then goes off to volunteer for the Peace Corps and dies pushing a woman and her baby out of the way of a bus. Would people feel he was a good person over all? If he survived would he still deserve to stand trial for his crime? Could you compare him with other murders and say “see all murders are okay people!”? Because that’s what you’re doing here, trying to justify the brutal crimes of that tyrant worm expresident by comparing him to some people who actually acted with the best interests of the country at heart, not their lust to sell out the country to Haliburtan and kill hundreds of thousands of people. > [@](#): > > Still argumentum ad populum. Ironic you cling to that label when you’re the one doing it. You try to say bush is okay because other presidents people consider okay did bad things sometimes. Sorry don’t fly. A war criminal traitorous lying murdering scumbag is a war criminal traitorous lying murdering scumbag, and so are the fools and traitors who supported him. > [@](#): > > It really depends on how you feel about things he did. If you are convinced he was a bad President, why should I convince you otherwise? Either you understand what **Alessan** says about this being political or you don’t. He sent innocent people off to be tortured. What kind evil sociopathic monster would be feel good about what happened to Maher Arar? How many other innocent people were tortured? Beaton with cords? Electroshock tortured and worse on Bush’s behalf? It’s political to say war criminals deserve justice? > [@](#): > > And if Iraq is a thriving Democracy in ten years Bush will be remembered for that. And we’ll all get ponies? Tell me what happens in Iraq if you’re not a member of the dominate religion. Please explain how that could likely change. > [@](#): > > Not necessarily, but there is a matter of scale involved here. I know it’s nice and idealistic to value human life on the individual level, but that’s not how it works under these circumstances. Bush barely rates as a tyrant. I hated him as President as much as the next guy but I do believe it would be worse to go after him than it would be to just let sleeping dogs lie. Future Presidents cannot lead if they know their unpopular decisions are going to be brought before a tribunal every time by their political opponents. Good. If it means future presidents will fear running the country into the ground and understand they’re under the law just like everyone else. > [@](#): > > Right, we’ll send a clear message that the Presidential office should be a toothless ceremonial position, and that we’d prefer to watch our Republic waste away because no politician will ever be willing to make an unpopular decision. Under what circumstance would you consider a presidential crime worthy of punishment? Since brutally torturing innocents and shitting all over the Constitution the president is sworn to protect doesn’t count. Were people Arar just “oops”? The cries of the families of the hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq (both servicemen and women, as well as Iraqi) were just water under the bridge? > [@](#): > > Outside of your hyperbole, I think you miss the point. Most Presidents who have taken us to war have presided over worse. Vietnam was worse, World War II was worse, the Civil War was worse, World War I was worse. The only reason people think Bush was so awful is because a 24 hour news cycle confronted them them with the ugly and brutal truth about war, not because he was any worse than the vast majority of our other wartime Presidents. In all reality he was probably not as bad as any of them. Not as bad as Lincoln, Jackson, Truman or FDR, not even close, not even in the same league. Lincoln presided over the war that freed the slaves. FDR, Great Depression and WW2. They faced a much greater threat, and much greater evil. Now you can tell me what purpose exactly the Iraq war served? Keep in mind it provided a good distraction so Osama (Bush’s buddy when you consider how much Osama’s actions helped Bush) could get away. Also it meant we had to pull forces out of Afghanistan so the Taliban, the people responsible for sheltering the group that killed 3,000+ Americans at 9/11, could get another foot hold. Also it drained and damaged our economy so we’d be good and sore for the housing bubble the fool ignored. Tell me what was accomplished in Iraq that was worth throwing another country to the dogs and letting Osama escape. What is the justification for torturing innocents? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/143 "2009-04-10T21:42:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I just hate it when someone talks about America as if it were a group of about one hundred people with like minds. > > We are a big jumble of differing opinions. A large portion of Americans have been protesting the detainment and torture of men at Guantanamo for several years now. There have been far too many of them for **Der Trihs** to be saying: > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > …Americans are far too self centered and malignant to care about the slaughter of innocents and torture; they just want a happyface pasted over it all. [/quote] Bush was reelected; then he was let out of office without punishment. We made our willingness to tolerate what he and his minions did clear. I see no reason to think that we are going to do anything more than slap a few minions on the wrist and agree to pretend it never happened. And, probably, keep on torturing while making sure to keep it out of the public eye. As **sailor** says; when Americans act as a whole, it becomes reasonable to speak of them as a whole even when a minority disagrees. “It’s just a few rotten apples” doesn’t work as an excuse when most of the barrel is rotten. > [@Zoe](#): > > There will be plenty of American supporters if and whenever those responsible for the war crimes at Guantanamo are brought before the appropriate court. I seriously doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/144 "2009-04-11T18:27:48Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > How old did you say you were? 😉 > > You find it hard to believe? Well, that just shows your ignorance of Spanish (and European) history. Because Europe has never had a tradition of absolute despots as was comon in Asian history. Any cases of that in European history have been truly exceptional and contrary to European tradition. Some European monarchs tried to rule with absolute, unrestrained, power and quite a few of those ended up literally losing their heads… Interesting post. I doubt Ferdinand VII (our last king) would agree with it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/145 "2009-04-11T20:53:41Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Interesting post. I doubt Ferdinand VII (our last king) would agree with it 🙂 Perhaps the Austrias where less absolute than the Bourbons? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/146 "2009-04-11T21:14:09Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Perhaps the Austrias where less absolute than the Bourbons? Definitely. The Bourbons brought with them from France a centralist mentality. First thing Philip V did was unite the separate kingdoms of Spain into one united kingdom with the Decretos de Nueva Planta. > [@](#): > > [Nueva Planta decrees - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Planta_decrees) > > The Nueva Planta decrees (Spanish: Decretos de Nueva Planta) were a number of decrees signed between 1707 and 1716 by Philip V—the first Bourbon king of Spain—during and shortly after the end of the War of the Spanish Succession which he won. > > Taking his native France as a model of a centralized state, Philip V suppressed the institutions, privileges, and the ancient fueros of almost all the areas that were formerly part of the Crown of Aragon (Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, and the Balearic Islands). The decrees ruled that all the territories in the Crown of Aragon except the Aran Valley were to be ruled by the laws of Castile (“the most praiseworthy in all the Universe” according to the 1707 decree), embedding these regions in a new, and nearly uniformly administered, centralized Spain. Other historic territories such as Navarre and the Basque Country, which supported Philip V during the war, kept using their own charters. > > The acts abolishing the fueros were promulgated in 1707 in Valencia and Aragon[1], in 1715 in Majorca and the other Balearic Islands (with the exception of Minorca, a colony of the Kingdom of Great Britain at the time), and finally in Catalonia on January 16, 1716[1]. > > These acts constituted the first realization of Spain as a centralized state and were meant both as a modernizing element, in line with other European countries where the monarchs were increasing their powers, and also as a punishment on these territories which had fought against Philip V in the War of Succession. Top civil servants were appointed directly from Madrid, the king’s court city, and most institutions in these territories were abolished. Court cases could only be presented and argued in Spanish, which became the sole language of government, displacing Catalan and other Spanish languages. And also, in every country in Europe, as the machinery and bureaucracy of the state developed, the state become more powerful and intrusive and controlling. In the 15th and 16th century the control was nominal more than actual but as the state developed it became more real. And many people saw that as a good thing. Socialism, communism, fascism, nazism were all the culmination of this long process of giving the state more and more power which was happening all over Europe, even in the UK even if to a lesser extent. In any case, I am not an expert on Ferdinand VII but those were years of upheaval and he was at the mercy of events and forces much bigger than himself. Ferdinand tried at times to govern with absolute powers but he was prevented by military coups. Nothing lasted long and things changed all the time. The French invasion brought crumbling down what had been the structure of the state but which was by now crumbling. The French invasion destroyed what was left and started a century of instability, coups, etc. A mess of affairs which lasted until the end of the civil war in 1940. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/147 "2009-04-11T21:25:54Z")
Then Estilicon was right about Ferdinand VII, also IIRC, Ferdinand resisted several attempts to turn Spain into a Constitutional Monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/148 "2009-04-11T21:36:20Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Then Estilicon was right about Ferdinand VII, also IIRC, Ferdinand resisted several attempts to turn Spain into a Constitutional Monarchy. Which supports my point that absolute monarchy was seen as something not in line with Spanish tradition and was resisted. Again, all of Europe went through a process where governments and their power grew but it was never the case (or very exceptionally) that the King had absolute power without being seriously challenged. More than one European monarch lost his life in trying to rule with abolute powers. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/149 "2009-04-16T16:35:44Z")
Oops! Poor Sailor! Nobody’s going to a Spanish prison after all! [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap\_on\_re\_eu/eu\_spain\_us\_torture](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap_on_re_eu/eu_spain_us_torture) ¡QUE LASTIMA! (snicker.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/150 "2009-04-16T16:39:00Z")
Shocking! I know this is coming as a complete surprise to me… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/151 "2009-04-16T18:18:13Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Oops! Poor Sailor! Nobody’s going to a Spanish prison after all! > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap\_on\_re\_eu/eu\_spain\_us\_torture](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap_on_re_eu/eu_spain_us_torture) > > ¡QUE LASTIMA! > > (snicker.) I suppose you like to gloat when criminals get away with their crimes. I am not like that. I would have liked that it be America who punished their own criminals and failing that I would have seen Europe make a statement by indicting them and keeping them away from European soil. Instead of that what I see is that so-called “civilized” countries make a mockery of their own laws which they use to punish others when it is convenients and which they do not apply to themselves when it suits them. The facts are clear: if you are an enemy of America you would be judged and punished for this behavior but if you are on the side of America you will go free and be praised. It is hypocritical and undermines any claims we may issue for the high moral ground. We are torturers and protectors of torturers. That is what we are no matter what else we may claim. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/152 "2009-04-16T18:19:32Z")
That whole ‘presumed innocent until proven guilty’ thingy just is SO outmoded these days… I feel your pain. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/153 "2009-04-17T04:53:40Z")
Perusing some of the more asinine posts in this thread all I can say is the best thing about Obama having been elected is it will soothe most of these people’s liberal guilt enough that their Bush-bashing nonsense will finally lose its satisfaction. Waterboarding, waterboarding, waterboarding… How can I put this? Grow the hell up. The world is a dangerous place full of selfish, evil people who would kill you for no rational reason. If waterboarding them gets your panties in a tizzy, well, stay home and play your Wii because its quite obvious that you’re not going to be able to handle the real world outside US borders. Things much, **much** worse go on everyday in the rest of the world. And not in govt interrogation rooms, in police drunk tanks. But all this is moot, because, wait for it… Waterboarding is not torture. Period. Torture is the direct infliction of pain. Waterboarding is a (only semi-) aggressive interrogation method which induces a brief but effective sense of panic. Not something you or I will ever encounter in everyday life, because we’re decent, law-abiding human beings. Once you choose terrorism you negate your claim to all of those, you become nothing more than a vessel of information that should be extracted by almost any means, including things a lot worse than WB’ing if neccesary. Why? Because they don’t value our lives even that much. Waterboarding works, and like it or not although it may no longer be used routinely it **will** still get used if neccesary. Behind closed doors even Obama knows this. In regards to the OP, if any country, Spain included, made the slightest attempt to apprehend any of the US officials listed: [ol][li]They would never even get close due to the amount of security these people have while abroad.[/li][li]If they were aggressive enough to subdue said security it would amount to an act of war and we would respond as such.[/li][li]Spain is merely trying to look tough to compensate for their complete appeasement, surrender, and downright complicity in their response to their 9/11 (the Madrid train bombings).[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/154 "2009-04-17T05:01:53Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > The world is a dangerous place full of . . . evil people Indeed it is. Sometimes they are evil because they are purposefully malicious. And other times merely because they are deeply ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/155 "2009-04-17T06:44:49Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Perusing some of the more asinine posts in this thread all I can say is the best thing about Obama having been elected is it will soothe most of these people’s liberal guilt enough that their Bush-bashing nonsense will finally lose its satisfaction. What “liberal guilt” ? > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Waterboarding, waterboarding, waterboarding… How can I put this? Grow the hell up. The world is a dangerous place full of selfish, evil people who would kill you for no rational reason. If waterboarding them gets your panties in a tizzy, well, stay home and play your Wii because its quite obvious that you’re not going to be able to handle the real world outside US borders. Things much, **much** worse go on everyday in the rest of the world. And not in govt interrogation rooms, in police drunk tanks. Assuming that is true, those police should be stripped of their position, and either executed or tossed in prison for life without parole. And if they flee the country they should be hunted down. As for people who want to kill us for no rational reason, torture IS a rational reason to want to kill someone. As is attacking their country. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Waterboarding is not torture. Period. Torture is the direct infliction of pain. Waterboarding is a (only semi-) aggressive interrogation method which induces a brief but effective sense of panic. Utter garbage. Waterboarding is torture; we even call it torture when someone else does it. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Not something you or I will ever encounter in everyday life, because we’re decent, law-abiding human beings. So were a great many of our victims. It didn’t stop us from torturing and/or murdering them. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Once you choose terrorism you negate your claim to all of those, you become nothing more than a vessel of information that should be extracted by almost any means, including things a lot worse than WB’ing if neccesary. Why? Because they don’t value our lives even that much. Our victims weren’t all, or even mostly terrorists. And what we have done is far worse than what THEY have done, so by your “logic” anything they do to us is justified. But let me guess; it doesn’t work the other way around. > [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Waterboarding works, and like it or not although it may no longer be used routinely it **will** still get used if neccesary. Garbage again; it fails miserably, as torture tends to. Torture is for getting what you want to hear out of people, not the truth. And for entertainment. And again; if it is used for any reason, life in prison without parole or death should be the penalty. [quote=“Hail\_Ants, post:153, topic:491440”] In regards to the OP, if any country, Spain included, made the slightest attempt to apprehend any of the US officials listed: [ol][li]They would never even get close due to the amount of security these people have while abroad.[/li][/quote] Tanks \> security, including the Secret Service. [quote=“Hail\_Ants, post:153, topic:491440”] [li]If they were aggressive enough to subdue said security it would amount to an act of war and we would respond as such.[/li][/quote] EU countries have nukes; they could shoot these people out of hand and we wouldn’t go to war over it. [quote=“Hail\_Ants, post:153, topic:491440”] [li]Spain is merely trying to look tough to compensate for their complete appeasement, surrender, and downright complicity in their response to their 9/11 (the Madrid train bombings).[/ol][/li][/QUOTE] Garbage yet again. The government lied to them about who did it, and the majority of the Spanish public were NEVER willingly going along with us. Nor should they have. They, like the majority of the human race outside of America, knew we were lying and opposed the war. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/156 "2009-04-17T08:31:59Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Waterboarding is not torture. Period. Well, you could just as well affirm that the extermination of the Jewish race is not a crime. Period. The only problem with both affirmations is that the entire civilized world, including the US Government, disagree with you. So that affirmation just serves to point out the fact that your position is totally outside that of all civilized countries. Which comes as no surprise to those of us who have read your posts here. [quote=“Hail\_Ants, post:153, topic:491440”] In regards to the OP, if any country, Spain included, made the slightest attempt to apprehend any of the US officials listed: [li]They would never even get close due to the amount of security these people have while abroad.[/li][/quote] Good one. What security? Tell any of those guys to come to Spain. Even with the indictment stopped. See if they have the guts to come here on vacation. They don’t. They cannot bring any amount of security and even if they did it would not matter. I bet you these guys will not be visiting Spain any time soon. [quote=“Hail\_Ants, post:153, topic:491440”] [li]If they were aggressive enough to subdue said security it would amount to an act of war and we would respond as such.[/li][/quote] Gimme a break with this childish “act of war” nonsense. It is just stupid. Americans get arrested in Spain all the time just like Spaniards get arrested in America all the time. At least Americans arrested in Spain know they can count on Spain abiding by their treaty commitments and allowing consular assistance which cannot be said about America where foreign detainees some times are not allowed consular assistance in contravention of the Vienna Convention. In Spain they take the concept of “rule of law” rather seriously. [quote=“Hail\_Ants, post:153, topic:491440”] [li]Spain is merely trying to look tough to compensate for their complete appeasement, surrender, and downright complicity in their response to their 9/11 (the Madrid train bombings).[/li][/QUOTE] This is just stupid. Spain arrested, tried and convicted those responsible. I would have thought this is what advanced, civilized societies were supposed to do. But it seems illegal torture in back rooms is the thing to do. I suppose this puts America right there in the civilized league of some African and Asian countries who do this kind of thing. I am extremely proud that the Spanish people respected the rule of law and did not panic and go apeshit like America did. Being tough is keeping your calm while things look difficult. Going apeshit and throwing furniture out the window is not bravery, its panic. And panic is what America went through with Bush. Of course, it was Bush more than the terrorist attacks who fomented this panic for his own ends. But the fact is that the American people panicked after a terrorist attack and the Spanish people did not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/157 "2009-04-22T16:14:52Z")
[El Pais](http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/fiscal/rechaza/investigar/Guantanamo/hablar/EE/UU/elpepiesp/20090418elpepinac_4/Tes), a left-leaning (but respected nonetheless 🙂 ) newspaper, says: > [@](#): > > La fiscalía de la Audiencia Nacional emitió ayer un informe por el que pide que se rechace una querella presentada contra el equipo jurídico de la Administración Bush que hizo posible el limbo jurídico de Guantánamo. > > La postura de la fiscalía ya había sido anticipada el pasado jueves por el fiscal del Estado, Cándido Conde-Pumpido, que calificó la querella de “fraudulenta”, y dijo que admitirla sería como convertir la jurisdicción universal en “un juguete en manos de personas que buscan protagonismo”. > > Según Zaragoza, los querellados no son responsables directos de un delito de torturas, tal y como pretenden los denunciantes, la Asociación por la Dignidad de los Presos y Presas. En esa línea, Conde-Pumpido también puntualizó ayer que si se actúa por un delito de maltrato a los prisioneros de guerra, la denuncia debería ir contra los “autores materiales”. > > Los denunciados son Alberto R. Gonzales, principal asesor legal de la Casa Blanca hasta 2005, cuando se convirtió en fiscal general de EE UU, y otros miembros de la Administración de George W. Bush como David Addington, William J. Haynes, Douglas Feith, Jay S.Bybee y John Yoo. Según la querella, los hechos se remontan a los ataques contra las Torres Gemelas el 11 de septiembre de 2001 que provocaron “que el anterior Gobierno estadounidense diera inicio a lo que en esa administración se entendió como una guerra sin pausa contra el terrorismo”. Translation: > [@](#): > > The Office of the Attorney of the National Court yesterday published a report asking for the dismissal of the complaint made against the legal team of the Bush administration, the group responsible for the legal limbo of Guantanamo. > > The position of the attorney’s office was anticipated last Thursday by the State’s attorney, Candido Conde-Pumpido, who said that the complaint was “fraudulent” and that accepting it would be like turning the concept of universal jurisdiction into a “toy in the hands of people looking for relevance.” > > According to Zaragoza, the defendants are not directly responsible for the crime of torture, as claimed by the plaintiffs, the Association for the Dignity of Inmates. In this respect, Conde-Pumpido also noted yesterday that if action is required for the crime of mistreatment of prisoners of war, the complaint must be made directly against the perpetrators. > > The defendants are Alberto R. Gonzales, principal legal advisor to the White House until 2005, when he became attorney general of the USA, and other members of the Bush administration, like David Addington, William J. Haynes, Douglas Feith, Jay S. Bybee and John Yoo. According to the complaint, the events date back to the attacks against the Twin Towers on Sept 11, 2001, which caused the “previous American administration to start what that administration understood as an ongoing war against terrorism.” ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/158 "2009-04-25T02:30:49Z")
After all, they need some sort of circus going on to distract the populace from the [17.4% jobless rate](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8016364.stm). At 17.4%, I would think they have more important things needing attention. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/159 "2009-04-25T02:51:01Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > After all, they need some sort of circus going on to distract the populace from the [17.4% jobless rate](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8016364.stm). > > At 17.4%, I would think they have more important things needing attention. And in what way does this affect their jobless rate ? Or distract from any efforts to deal with it ? Criminal prosecution and economic polices don’t involve the same people, normally. And if they have an obligation to care about joblessness, surely they have an even larger one to care about their citizens being tortured? You are indulging in the standard right wing practice of accusing other people of “playing wag the dog” - when in fact, that’s exactly what you are doing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440/160 "2009-04-25T07:39:25Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > After all, they need some sort of circus going on to distract the populace from the [17.4% jobless rate](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8016364.stm). > > At 17.4%, I would think they have more important things needing attention. The stupidity of this post is comparable to people who say “why did the cop give me a ticket for speeding when they should be catching _real_ criminals?”. I say comparable in a loose sense because trying to excuse speeding by comparing it to worse crimes and trying to excuse torture by comparing it to no crime at all are not even close. Come to think about it they are so far apart in stupidity that you would really need a logarithmic scale of comparison. And it seems to me the USA has plenty of internal problems of its own it can try to fix before it goes out there trying to fix the world by torturing and killing people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viva-espana-spain-looking-to-indict-bushies-ole/491440.md?page=9)